What gives?

America don't exactly have the cleanest record when it comes to Ethnic cleansing either!

Jonathan

I've just got home from having been to the cinema to watch 'Syriana' which impressed me greatly. The tagline for the film is 'everything is connected'. It raised many of the topics I have brought up in this and similar threads which is amazing for an American film. I urge you all to see it. It is a complex film about a complex subject but I believe it to be a fair and accurate portrayal of the tip of the iceberg.

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:
Bloody icebergs.

That's what Captain Edward John Smith said.

quote:

Originally posted by Rube:
Pride national or otherwise greed and vanity have been the cause of many wars

whats the cure ?

None, hence the on going conflicts seen in those regions of the world. Apart from trying myself to be a better member of society, I dunno what else to do. Are we as humans going down the path of extinction?

quote:

Originally posted by wellyspyder:

quote:

Originally posted by Rube:
Pride national or otherwise greed and vanity have been the cause of many wars

whats the cure ?

None, hence the on going conflicts seen in those regions of the world. Apart from trying myself to be a better member of society, I dunno what else to do. Are we as humans going down the path of extinction?

One of the theories as to why we have not been contacted by intelligent life from elswehere in the universe is that all 'intelligent' life extinguishes itself after having developed the technology to do so!

Returning to the theme of Iran and its potential for developing nuclear weapons...

I've read many times that Ahmadinejad's pronouncements on the destruction of Israel are purely rhetoric and can thus be ignored. I've stated my view that if there's even a small probability that he means what he says then the likelihood of Iran developing nuclear weapons must be taken very seriously indeed.

The following chilling passage refers to the war between Iran and Iraq:

The chief combat tactic employed by the Basiji was the human wave attack, whereby barely armed children and teenagers would move continuously toward the enemy in perfectly straight rows. It did not matter whether they fell to enemy fire or detonated the mines with their bodies: The important thing was that the Basiji continue to move forward over the torn and mutilated remains of their fallen comrades, going to their deaths in wave after wave. Once a path to the Iraqi forces had been opened up, Iranian commanders would send in their more valuable and skilled Revolutionary Guard troops.

It's extremely difficult for us to comprehend the reality of the cult of death of the Basiji with which Ahmadinejad is aligned or the way that he thinks. Nevertheless, it's better that we try than that we put our head in the sand and hope the situation goes away.

Ahmadinejad's Demons - Matthias Küntzel


There are no easy answers to the situation with the Iranian nuclear programme and I fear that we're in a lose-lose situation.

luckily i live a long way away from the middle east ,ingrained generational hatred is a hard thing to deal with . It seems that the different sects among islam are quiet violent to each other let alone us infidels .

The hard thig is once people are indoctinated it,s hard to get them to see sense
if its posible for humanity to wake up and let go of divise-ifness and beliefs that lead to conflict or at least a proportion of us it would make it somewhat better, peace in ones own heart is a good thing .
We can all make some difference in the world around us ,if people like what they see in us it might catch on thats all we can really do .

quote:

Originally posted by Rube:
luckily i live a long way away from the middle east ,ingrained generational hatred is a hard thing to deal with . It seems that the different sects among islam are quiet violent to each other let alone us infidels .

The hard thig is once people are indoctinated it,s hard to get them to see sense
if its posible for humanity to wake up and let go of divise-ifness and beliefs that lead to conflict or at least a proportion of us it would make it somewhat better, peace in ones own heart is a good thing .
We can all make some difference in the world around us ,if people like what they see in us it might catch on thats all we can really do .

Rube,

Well said. I agree totally.

Regards,

Erik

Winning the peace will be the hard bit

Can you remove the means of production of enriched uranium to meet the wishes of some people and should you then go on to effect a regime change by removing the religious leaders as well? Some consider the effects of two part action a high price to pay for all concerned.

quote:

Despite these well-founded fears, the lack of other viable options coupled with the strong intent of the U.S. administration to stop Iran from building the bomb (heedless of the costs), will likely drive the Pentagon towards this method of attack. To the Bush administration, all alternatives are preferable to a nuclear-armed Iranian clerical regime, which has de facto control over Palestine’s Hamas, Shiite militias in Iraq, Lebanon’s Hezbollah and numerous other global terror groups. For those contemplating this attack, the Iranian regime, with Ahmadinejad as its public face, has become everything that Saddam promised to be and more.

Collapsing Iran - John Robb

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:

quote:

Originally posted by wellyspyder:

quote:

Originally posted by Rube:
Pride national or otherwise greed and vanity have been the cause of many wars

whats the cure ?

None, hence the on going conflicts seen in those regions of the world. Apart from trying myself to be a better member of society, I dunno what else to do. Are we as humans going down the path of extinction?

One of the theories as to why we have not been contacted by intelligent life from elswehere in the universe is that all 'intelligent' life extinguishes itself after having developed the technology to do so!

In the words of Roger Waters - "Give any one species too much rope and they'll f*ck it up"

Phil

This really doesn't help either, does it?

It's nice for friends to share

I could have linked from any number of sources but the NY Times shows the three buddies together.

Anyone for genocide?

Regards
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by 7V:
This really doesn't help either, does it?

It's nice for friends to share

I could have linked from any number of sources but the NY Times shows the three buddies together.

Anyone for genocide?

Regards
Steve

What are they talking of doing that we in the west have not done already? We start a club, we say who can join and who cannot and we forbid others from starting their own club. Just a thought.

Eric, you're missing the point.


This reminds me on an interview I once watched on British television with Mikhail Gorbachev, after the first Gulf War.

Gorbachev said that he was considering what position the Soviet Union should take following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. He looked at the forces lined up on the anti-Saddam side while on the pro-Saddam side he saw only the lunatics Arafat and Gaddafi (his words). That gave him a pretty good idea, he said. The Soviets came down on the side of the coalition.

*

Would it be considered reasonable of me to think the fundamental basis of the United Nations is the right of all nations...be it great or small, to have weight, to have a vote, to be attended to and treated equally, to be a part of the twenty-first century?

A Country without a nuclear weapon is not, cannot, consider itself independent!

quote:

Originally posted by Beano:
Would it be considered reasonable of me to think the fundamental basis of the United Nations is the right of all nations...

That's a point that superpower do forget.
Of course a world without nuke would be a better world.
A starting point for the best world possible ever.
But we live in a place where the most fitted wins.
The hypocritical that used this law and the blackmail as economical crime don't like to see other contenders on the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Beano:
A Country without a nuclear weapon is not, cannot, consider itself independent!

So, the USA, Russia, the UK, France, China, India, Pakistan, Israel (most probably) and North Korea (most probably) are the only independent countries in the world.

Germany, Japan, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Brazil, Zimbabwe, Argentina, Australia - in fact all of the other 183-odd countries - cannot consider themselves independent.

Beano, have you thought this through?

quote:

Originally posted by 7V:
Eric, you're missing the point.


This reminds me on an interview I once watched on British television with Mikhail Gorbachev, after the first Gulf War.

Gorbachev said that he was considering what position the Soviet Union should take following Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. He looked at the forces lined up on the anti-Saddam side while on the pro-Saddam side he saw only the lunatics Arafat and Gaddafi (his words). That gave him a pretty good idea, he said. The Soviets came down on the side of the coalition.

I don't think I am missing the point. I only wrote what I wrote. You assume I am taking sides? I am not. I am merely pointing out that Iran is only doing what we have done. I said no more than that and what I said is undeniable.

I get that absolutely, Eric.

Some posters here are of the view that when it comes to nukes, every country should be allowed them because otherwise things aren't fair or equitable. I agree with them.

Unfortunately, if every country had nuclear weapons - in the interests of fairness - then I doubt that our species would last very long and somehow, to me, that doesn't seem fair.

quote:

Originally posted by 7V:
I get that absolutely, Eric.

Some posters here are of the view that when it comes to nukes, every country should be allowed them because otherwise things aren't fair or equitable. I agree with them.

Unfortunately, if every country had nuclear weapons - in the interests of fairness - then I doubt that our species would last very long and somehow, to me, that doesn't seem fair.

Yep, it's all a bloody nightmare. The damn toothpaste won't go back in the tube. Conventionally of course there is no solution to all this. People are too fearful, too mistrusting and too greedy. Personally I don't want Iran to have the bomb but only because I don't want ANY country to have the bomb but the reality is the bloody things are here to stay until such time as we get beyond the 'us and them' mentality and that will not be any time soon. So, as I said, there is no conventional solution to the problem at all IMO. As for 'fairness' I actually subscribe to the totally weird view that whereas the universe is spectacularly indifferent to our suffering it is also spectacularly fair insofar as the universe is a product of what has gone before, it is the effect of causes, it is the effect of karma (which means 'actions' in sanskrit)and that karma is a group effort. We can only get back what we gave out so there can't be anything fairer than that. What with global pollution reaching the scale it has I think the planet can only be saved if we all work together to save it recognising that we are all in the same boat and that nature does not take sides. Maybe dumping all nuclear weapons is what is needed to kick this process off and that the US which produces 2/3rds of the world's greenhouse gases should take the lead and disarm unilaterally?

All the best,

Erik

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
Maybe dumping all nuclear weapons is what is needed to kick this process off and that the US which produces 2/3rds of the world's greenhouse gases should take the lead and disarm unilaterally?

All the best,

Erik

Agree, if only it will occur. Cannot see that hapening though.

Let's be clear though. We're talking of two separate issues here.

The US disarming will not have an effect on its greenhouse gas emissions. In fact James Lovelock, the inventor of the concept of Gaia, has recently declared that he believes nuclear power to be the best answer to reducing the emissions of greenhouse gases.

quote:

Originally posted by 7V:

quote:

Originally posted by Beano:
A Country without a nuclear weapon is not, cannot, consider itself independent!

So, the USA, Russia, the UK, France, China, India, Pakistan, Israel (most probably) and North Korea (most probably) are the only independent countries in the world.

Germany, Japan, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Brazil, Zimbabwe, Argentina, Australia - in fact all of the other 183-odd countries - cannot consider themselves independent.

Beano, have you thought this through?

Of course I’ve thought about it, it’s a philosophical viewpoint, Iran wants what the west has got. It’s a given that weapons are an important factor in war, but not the decisive factor; it is people, not things that are decisive. The contest of strength is not only a contest of military and economic power, but also a contest of human power and morale. Military and economic power is wielded by people.

Consider this, what has kept the world safe from the bomb since 1945 has not been deterrence, in the sense of fear of specific weapons, so much as it's been memory. The memory of what happened at Hiroshima.

Let us hope that the superpowers never forget what they need to remember!

Beano

quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin Maynard-Portly:
I suspect it would also be a Russian-speaking world.

Do they speak.....american?

quote:

Originally posted by wellyspyder:

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
Maybe dumping all nuclear weapons is what is needed to kick this process off and that the US which produces 2/3rds of the world's greenhouse gases should take the lead and disarm unilaterally?

All the best,

Erik

Agree, if only it will occur. Cannot see that hapening though.

I mean nuclear disarming. Not about greenhouse gas emmisions, that is another topic altogether.