Work shy brits, the facts

Not really - they just can't tear themselves away from the excitement of daytime television.

Maybe they can't tear themselves away from all those psychedelic, prog, folk CDs, recommended by ROTF.

Regards
Fredrik

I hope their children can all speak English otherwise God help the schools.

quote:

Or that some people would rather not have the very, very menial jobs

If you read the article, the figure of 600,000 is an estimate based on ca. 450,000 applications for work permits, the balance being self employed workers such as builders. Of the 450,000 slightly more than half 'work in factories.'

Whilst you are probably right that a significant proportion are taking menial jobs, an awfull lot are/will be doing skilled work.

/dl

I am all for freedom of movement of labour, but I think that what is happening is a very sad reflection on what the government has achieved over the last 10 years as far as education and training is concerned. Whilst it might be a simplistic view, I do believe that the root of this problem lies in the school system where, to a large extent, attitudes and expectations are formed, and to 'communities' at large, which should, surely, have a vested interest in ensuring that younger members of the community develop into individuals who are reasonably able to contribute to society. If schools are continually under funded and staff must struggle to maintain order in the classroom, let alone teach, and the role models that are paraded in front of us are the 'contestants' on Big Brother and other (non)reality TV programmes there is really little hope.

/dl

Yeah, I kinda agree with David here. OK, so they tell us that school exams aren't getting easier, but then I read that physics & chemistry students are getting more & more rare, because they are "just too hard a subject, & I'd rather do my degree in fashion-buying"!! Which sounds to me just like what most teenage girls do every saturday anyway.
Proper apprenticeships & training schemes seem to be a thing of the past, & with the advent of reality TV more & more kids think they can bypass vocational training & get-rich-quick by getting on the telly or marrying a footballer. A weeks hard graft in a pro kitchen, or building site would crucify a lot of the younger generation, it seems. Oh sh*t, I'm sounding like my dad again! Time to go.
matt.

Oh yes, nearly forgot.
Remember that TV programme "Auf Weidersein Pet", where (supposedly) skilled british labourers went abroad to bulid stuff for other countries? Now that seems to have been reversed.
matt.

Ah education. Perhaps again a simplistic perspective but from my own schooldays experience beginning in the seventies and now as a father, it seems to me most schooling is about attaining a level playing field of knowledge and skills for the kids but rather than raising the bar up to the level of the best/brightest/most attentive children it is constantly lowered to meet the expected level of achievment of the less skilled/lazier children because somehow this is otherwise discriminatory against the low achievers.

There seems to be no room for acknowledging that some children are more adept at mental skills, some more artistic, some more mechanically skilled and some more physically able and aiding or even allowing them to develop and be stronger in their respective strengths.

Every year, we go throught he same questions over exam results. My lad this year has taken some exams prior to his full final year exams next year, I fully expect him to have done OK, not fantastic, he's not the type, but OK. However, when asked he can't tell me anything about his subjects or have a discussion about them. He knows how to answer exam quations because they have studied past exam questions and answering skills more than anything else and apparently there still seems a shortage of variety of questions on each topic. So he knows how to answer a certain question very well but he's no idea as to content of his subject or how to expand and/or apply it. This seems typical with virtually every parent I speak to and, from those with children of a variety of ages, is systematically getting worse for the younger children. Very worrying I think.

If the POles are doing all the menial jobs what will the least educated/able Brits do for a living? Youngsters leaving school with little education and motivation and no real prospect of work? Sounds like a recipe for disaster IMO.

It would be wrong to assume that the imigrant workers from the EU are just doing 'all' the menial jobs. The background report shows 6,500 coach lorry and bus drivers, 1,500 teachers, researchers etc., 600 dentists and 2,000 GP's, doctors, nurses and other medical specialists amongst the total head count. OK, a small proportion of the whole, but surprising and, if you are a lorry driver, dentist, medic, etc. probably not a little worrying.

I suppose my original post was brought about by the shock of a scenario where 600,000 jobs have been taken over, not by unemployed 'brits' but by keen, skilled, whatever, non-brits. Over the same period of time, total unemployment has fallen, but not by the same amount.

I think that Erik is right that there is a ticking timebomb sitting there. The answers should be pretty obvious, except that no one really cares, or those that do don't have mandate to do anything. My own view is that schools (and communities) are key to any sustainable solution. After all, a company manufacturing products that relied on quality control and rectification as the final stage of manufacture would be out of business very quickly.

Jamies comments certainly ring true from what I have heard of the UK school system. Political correctness means that one or more 'bad eggs' in a class can ruin the schooling for 25 or so others. Multiply that by the number of such classes in each school, and by the number of schools in the UK, one can easily see why schools don't really teach any more, but work to satisfy targets set by the powers that be.

Surely better to offer alternatives for those that do not fit in. This does not necessarily mean they are not academically capable, and many rowdies are socially very smart. I am sure that many of the disrupive element are simply bored ridgid and are doing the human equivalent of a caged animal pacing up and down.

/dl

Interesting to note that my local shop in South London now has shelves full of Polish tinned and packet food.
John

quote:

Originally posted by John Channing:
Interesting to note that my local shop in South London now has shelves full of Polish tinned and packet food.
John

I in 10 in Southampton is Polish and there are even Polish shops there. The Poles make a great contribution to our society with their hard work and positive attitudes. On the whole I am all for open markets, no borders and multi-ethnic societies but I do think there will be a negative backlash and this has to be factored in. If a similar number of Bulgarians and Romanians come here to work then I think the very faric of our society will change, change for the better in many respects and change for the worse in others. I just hope that those in power appreciate this and have a solution for minimising the negative aspects as an increasing number of the most vulnerable British school leavers find it harder to find gainful employment. In the great scheme of things it is wrong to favour one group over another and I am only concerned in a net increase of happiness for people in general and not a net increase of happiness for a sub-set over that of another sub-set. In the long term some balance will be gained as all the EU member states equal out and the (relatively)petty vested interest of an indiviual nation state becomes a thing of the past but this is a long way off and may never happen. In the meantime any adjustment towards this goal will be painful for the relatively better off states. Will they allow this adjustment? I doubt it.

Firstly, I would like to say that this experience is not related to Poles.

My Dad has a building business that specialises in 'high quality finishing work', (solid wooden floors, hand rails, window sills and the like), He constantly gets called in for contracts that are near their deadline and may slip into a penalty clause situation.

The main problem for my Dad and his workmates has been the quaility of Eastern European work, and not the quantity. This includes leaking plumbing, doors incorrectly hung therefore have been 'botched' to fit. Hand rails cut at the wrong angles, all fundamental stuff. The workers also fail to comply with H&S systems when asked. My Dad removes his Staff from a site, or dis-allows them on, if they do not comply.

Equally, I cannot find decent, polite or reliable staff for my business, in this area.

Regards

Guy

quote:

Did you know that the Polish education is very good and most people taking a degree study for 6 years to Masters level and have English and one other foreign language as well.

We have been recruiting Polish graduates (into IT/Investment banking) for about 4 years and we are fortunate to take the best students from the best universities. Most have been a pleasure to work with and very bright too.
John

Frank
If by 'Central european' you mean citizens of a member state of the EU please tell me what rights they don't have in the UK.

Frank
this is from
http://www.britishcouncil.org/eumobility-leaving-the-uk-working-in-eu-jobs.htm

If you are an EU citizen and are unemployed, you have the right to live in another EU country for a 'reasonable period' of time in order to look for a job. With a 'reasonable period' not being clearly defined, most EU countries are operating a six-month period, although some still operate a three-month period. It is advisable to check the exact situation with your host country. However, no matter how long you have to look for a job, you cannot be asked to leave the country if you can prove that you are genuinely looking for a job and that you have a real chance of finding one. It is also often possible to register at employment agencies and centres without being resident in the country in which you wish to work. If you are claiming unemployment benefit in one member state, you may continue to claim benefit from that same country for up to three months after you move to another member state. This is on the provision that you have been available to the employment services in the country where you have been claiming unemployment benefit for at least four weeks. The agency paying your unemployment benefit will issue you with Form E303. As a job seeker, you must take this form to the employment services in the country in which you are seeking work. If you do not find work, you must return to the first country within three months, otherwise you will forfeit your right to unemployment benefit.

So the rules seem to be across all of the EU not just the UK.

hi,

I mostly find that the brits want to know "what time is home time?" the first morning they start.
We have had it too easy for too long me thinks.

regards

I think you are very badly informed as to what benefits asylum seekers are entitled to in the UK.

You may find this Oxfam poverty sight illuminating.
http://www.oxfamgb.org/ukpp/safe/myths3.htm

IIRC, the 600,000 'new workers' in the UK are not asylum seakers.

I couldn't quickly find a figure for the number of asylum seekers being processed. However, over the same period as the influx of 600,000 mainland europeans, 123,000 individuals were granted asylum. In addition to these 600,000 + ca.125,000, a further 700,000 dependants and non EU migrants can be added to the total of 1,425,000 new UK residents quoted by the BBC.

/dl

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Tate:
I mostly find that the brits want to know "what time is home time?" the first morning they start.

That's quite an important question methinks

Other important questions are

How much holiday do I get?
What kind of pension can I expect?
When can I retire?

If god had meant us to work, he would've given us jobs - HMHB.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Tate:
I mostly find that the brits want to know "what time is home time?" the first morning they start.

That's quite an important question methinks

Other important questions are

How much holiday do I get?
What kind of pension can I expect?
When can I retire?

If god had meant us to work, he would've given us jobs - HMHB.

Rotf,
what i was really meant to say was - The first thing in the morning, every morning, every week, every month and every year!

regards

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
[If god had meant us to work, he would've given us jobs - HMHB.

Many a true word said in jest, perhaps!

Certainly in the Judeo-Christian tradition, work was not part of the 'original blessing', but only entered the frame as a result of the Fall - the disobedience of the first human beings, 'our first parents', who are named highly symbolically, 'Adam' ('man') and 'Eve' ('mother')

(See Genesis 3)

James