72/SUPERCAP/140 - Any downside?

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Originally posted by Stevea:
[...]
I was planning of starting off simply, by adding a HICAP to my 72/140 combo (Plan A). However it has been suggested that since I ultimately intend to end up with a 252/SUPERCAP/250 combination I could get a 2nd hand SUPERCAP instead of the HICAP (Plan B).

Since I plan on a 1 box per year upgrade path Plan B would save a lot of time (and probably a lot of money) but would the 72/SUPERCAP pairing have any short-term downside?

Plan A is:
[...]
Plan B would be:
72/140
> 72/SUPERCAP/140
> 72/SUPERCAP/250
> 252/SUPERCAP/250

Steve

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Steve,
you should go for plan B, you would be very astonished what a Supercap can do with your preamp.
Have a demo ...

But I would change your plan B a little:

72/SUPERCAP/140
252(52)/SUPERCAP/140
252(52)/SUPERCAP/250

Regards
HANNES

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Originally posted by I remember Vuk Vuksanovic:
Plan A would only make sense to your dealer.

David

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I'm sure it would but, to be fair, he has suggested I try both and decide. He would like to sell more boxes, I am sure, but does seem interested in me getting the best results.

The one risk I am slightly concerned about is that Naim will announce a new 'improved' version of the supercap just before I get to use it on the 252.

Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by Hannes:
But I would change your plan B a little:

72/SUPERCAP/140
252(52)/SUPERCAP/140
252(52)/SUPERCAP/250

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Seconded!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Hanson:

quote:

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Originally posted by Hannes:
But I would change your plan B a little:

72/SUPERCAP/140
252(52)/SUPERCAP/140
252(52)/SUPERCAP/250

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Seconded!

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Given that I run Dynaudio Contour 1.8Mk2 speakers, not the worlds most efficient, would you still put the 252 (52) in front of the 250?

Steve

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Originally posted by Stevea:
Given that I run Dynaudio Contour 1.8Mk2 speakers, not the worlds most efficient, would you still put the 252 (52) in front of the 250?

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It depends on the music you play, how loud you play it, the size of your room, how reflective it is, etc. IOW, I can't answer that question for you.


You'll know much more after adding the Super-Cap to the 72. It will enable the 140 to do a much better job than it's doing now, and the 140 won't improve much more by going to a 252. Therefore, if you're basically happy with the control of the speakers after the Super-Cap, then go for the 252 next. Otherwise, get the 250 first.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Steve, have you already made the CDX upgrade that's listed as in your profile as your next upgrade? If not it might be of some relevance in this discussion...

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Originally posted by JeremyD:
Steve, have you already made the CDX upgrade that's listed as in your profile as your next upgrade? If not it might be of some relevance in this discussion...

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No, that comes at the end of this year. I left it out for simplicity since I was really trying to get a handle on the step to take in the next few weeks, which was amplifier related.

Assuming the modified Plan B and adding CDP upgrade(s) the full Plan C would be:

Sansui CD-x711/72/140
> Sansui CD-x711/72/SUPERCAP/140 (Jan 2004)
> CDX2/72/SUPERCAP/140 (Nov 2004)
> CDX2/XPS2/72/SUPERCAP/140 (Nov 2005)
> CDX2/XPS2/252(52)/SUPERCAP/140 (2006)
> CDX2/XPS2/252(52)/SUPERCAP/250 II (2007)
> CDS3/XPS2/252(52)/SUPERCAP/250 II (2008)

Actually, a 2nd hand 52 might be a good way to accelerate things as well since there is apparently not much difference between the 52 and 252 (for me, mixing cosmetics is irrelevant).

The above assumes, of course, that the CDX2 proves to be better than the Sansui and anything else I might try out later this year.

Steve

[This message was edited by Stevea on TUESDAY 06 January 2004 at 02:42.]

Hi Steve

Although i don't know nothing about your sensui cd player, i would recommend a CDX (or CDX2) at least, before starting to upgrade the amps.

There's no downside about the 72/supercap combo, it works magically. I have a supercap on my 72 for about a month now, and it is really a very significant upgrade to the hicap i had before. So i would suggest to go for plan B. I went through

72/140
> 72/hicap/140
> 72/hicap/250
> 72/supercap/250

and was very very pleased with every step i made. If you have a 52 (or 252) in mind, you should skip any other preamp upgrade and go straightly for the x5x. i had 102 and 82 for demo, and none of them justified an upgrade in terms of VFM (IMVHO). Now, a 52 is on my 2004 wish list :-)

I have Dynaudio Contour 1.3 MkII speakers - told to be even more power hungry than the 1.8 - and they work very fine with my olive 250 in a midsized room. An olive 250 would certainly be more than adequate for your speakers. Anything more powerfull (like 135s or new 250) is always better.

Dimitri

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Originally posted by rocketeer:
Although i don't know nothing about your sensui cd player, i would recommend a CDX (or CDX2) at least, before starting to upgrade the amps.

Dimitri

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The Sansui is 1989 vintage machine. It was top of the Sansui line at the time and was rated highly. I have, in the last 6 months, improved it beyond recognition with the addition of Ganymede v.c.s. bearing isolators instead of it own feet and by placing it on a 5cm thick shelf full of coral sand. It is performing so well at the moment that it has earned its place on my rack for the time being. About October I plan to audition the CDX2, Meridian 588 and Musical Fidelity CD308 and don’t really expect the Sansui to better any of these but it has earned a shot at it.

It looks like this month it is going to be a 2nd hand supercap I have to find room for. It appears this is a win-win-win proposition since it will be better than the hicap on the 72, take two intermediate steps out of my upgrade plans and save money in the process.

Steve

I'd recommend listening to a Naim CD player against the Sansui before going any further.

Paul Rowlands

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Originally posted by prowla:
I'd recommend listening to a Naim CD player against the Sansui before going any further.

Paul Rowlands

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I have been tempted on a couple of occasions but have not for the following reason:

Currently I am very happy with my system but do know it can be improved upon and I have embarked on a process to do this. However, my limited exposure to better systems means I do not have any real appreciation of by how much it can be improved and what it could/will sound like when I am done.

The next upgrade (next few weeks) is a PSU and this has been planned since I got the 72/140 combo in late '94, even if it has been delayed by other interests, priorities, etc. If I listen to a CDP on my system right now that convinces me that I am deluded about the sound of the Sansui, even though I quite probably am, I will spend the rest of the year dissatisfied with my system and quite possibly not listening to it while I save for the new CDP. I do not want to be unhappy with my system as I want to continue enjoying my music.

In short - ignorance is bliss.

Steve

P.S. I will be quite happy to admit I was deluded, when the time comes, if indeed I was.

Steve
I would think that sansui into Naim is a mismatch.
I would also think that sansui into 252/Supercap/250 is plain barmy!
You have a 72/140 which is a very good combination, and capable of really singing with the right front end.
You've obviously got a pockeful of money (or credit).
I'm suggesting that you have a listen to a better front-end before bulking up on the amplifier.
You can afford a CDX.
If you do listen to (say) a CDX into your current system, and contrast it with adding a Supercap instead, then I'd be surprised if you go for the Supercap first.
I reckon that CDX/72/140 would have your feet tapping like there's no tomorrow.
You don't have to put a stonking great PSU in there yet...
FYI, my system is CDX/82+2xHi/250, but previously I've run lesser CD players into Naim amps (including a Philips into a Nait, a Meridian into a 140, a Sony into a 62s/140) and to be honest they couldn't touch the Naim players (I also ran CD3.5+Hi/62s/140 and that was quite good).
If you do go for a PSU for your 72, it may be worth opting for a Hi-Cap since they're very re-usable in the Naim range.

Paul Rowlands

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Originally posted by Tom Alves:
The downside is that it might well reveal the weakness of your front end. Why not compromise with a HiCap and a secondhand Naim CDP?

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Yes, I am aware of the potential to expose the front end, if that happens then so be it, I will just have to live with that for a while, I just don't want to do it intentionally sooner than I need to.

I was originally simply planning on getting a 2nd hand HiCap, but none are available round here at the moment (in fact for last several months). I had therefore resigned myself to buying a new one when it was suggested that price wise I was getting close to a 2nd hand Supercap and that this would be better, especially if I was planning on going further. It took a while to get my head around this idea as it seemed like a serious case of overkill but I did the numbers and going to a Supercap now will take two years off my upgrade path and save in the region of NZ$12,000 (US$7800) over the next 4-5 years.

If the Sansui does get seriously trashed by adding the Supercap I may have to reconsider my plans/timing but I am pretty confident that the Sansui, while it may be a little exposed, will not be totally embarrassed.

I have considered a 2nd hand CDS2 instead of the CDX2 and may still go this way later in the year. The problem with this is that going from CDS2/XPS to CDS3/XPS2 would involve finding another buyer for the full CDS2/XPS combination which would be a lot harder round here than going CDX2 > +XPS2 > various amp upgrades > sell CDX2 and buy CDS3, since the CDX2 in newer, stand alone and easier to find a buyer for.

The path is slightly risky in the early stages but I think it is a gamble worth taking – we shall see I still think that way this time next month. I shall let you kno if I have got it wrong.

Steve

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Therefore, if you're basically happy with the control of the speakers after the Super-Cap, then go for the 252 next. Otherwise, get the 250 first.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Sounds like a plan. Thanks

Steve

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Originally posted by prowla:
I would think that sansui into Naim is a mismatch.

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Not yet it isn’t. The CD-x711 sounds great with the 72/140. With the 72/Supercap/140 it may not go so well but I will only have to live with that till November when I plan to replace it. It is a risk but I am quite interested (at the moment) to see just how good (or bad) it really is.

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I would also think that sansui into 252/Supercap/250 is plain barmy!

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Agreed. The Sansui should have been replaced by a CDX2/XPS2 before I get either the 252 or the 250 according to the schedule.

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You've obviously got a pockeful of money (or credit).

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No, just paying the mortgage, socializing less and saving hard, probably also have to skip a bit of skiing to pull it off. The upgrade process is scheduled to take place between now and the end of 2008 (i.e. over 5 years), not all at once. I’m just planning ahead so that I can get there with the least money spent on intermediate steps.

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I'm suggesting that you have a listen to a better front-end before bulking up on the amplifier.

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This was (still is really) the plan. The only reason a SuperCap has come into the picture at this stage is that I couldn’t get a 2nd hand HiCap. I would have been quite happy with a 2nd hand HiCap but its unavailability has made me look a bit more to the future. I know it is overkill, but once its is there I don’t have to worry about it again.

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You can afford a CDX.

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Possibly, but it is an intermediate step (see above) and the $ for a new CDX2 is not in this months budget.

……..

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If you do go for a PSU for your 72, it may be worth opting for a Hi-Cap since they're very re-usable in the Naim range.
Paul Rowlands

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That’s where I started. A new HiCap (since I couldn’t get a 2nd hand one) was approaching the cost of a 2nd hand SuperCap so between now and the end of 2008 I will save money by not buying a HiCap that I would subsequently lose money on the sale of.

Steve

[This message was edited by Stevea on WEDNESDAY 07 January 2004 at 03:12.]

I'd be suprised if, given that second hand HiCaps are scarce where you are, that you would be able to get a s/h Supercap.

S/H Supercaps are still scarce in the UK, whereas Hicaps can be found quite easily.

Hi again, Steve
Well - you know where you're going, so best of luck and hope you get there.
(You'll end up with a better system than mine too!)

Paul Rowlands

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Originally posted by greeny:
I'd be suprised if, given that second hand HiCaps are scarce where you are, that you would be able to get a s/h Supercap.

S/H Supercaps are still scarce in the UK, whereas Hicaps can be found quite easily.

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Seems to be the other way round here. There is one available at the local dealer and it looks likely that there is another up in Auckland. I am just collecting info on them before I make a desision.

Steve

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Originally posted by prowla:
Hi again, Steve
Well - you know where you're going, so best of luck and hope you get there.
(You'll end up with a better system than mine too!)

Paul Rowlands

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Thanks for all the input.

I have decided to go for the Supercap in the knowledge that over the course of my 5 year plan the worst case scenario is that for the first 10 or so months I may have to put the PSU in a cupboard and wait for the CDP upgrade.

The Sansui sounded very ordinary before I more or less accidentally discovered how much it could be improved with effective vibration control while experimenting with ideas for the rack I am building. It was designed in the days where the thought that vibration seriously effected CDP electronics was a bit of a wild idea. My theory is that it has a pretty good electronics design, even including two independent power supplies, but is not very well designed mechanically with respect to the vibration issue (probably typical of machines of its vintage). I might talk to James about trying it out on his system - that should answer a few questions.

Steve