Uniti struggling with UPnP connection

quote:

Originally posted by Tom_W:
Hi,
I've been having problems with intermittent connection drop-outs to my UPnP server.

I'm running Windows 7 64 bit with Foobar V1.0 (+UPnP component v0.99.19.1).
I'm connected by wire, and the network connection is ok because internet radio seems fine.

Sometimes I can select and play tracks without any issue, but quite often it loses the server connection and either can't connect at all, or it can see the music library but can't play anything.

I also installed Asset, and seem to have the same problems.

Has anyone else had success with a Windows 7 64 bit PC? I know other people have had success with Foobar previously.

Thanks

Might it not be the same problem as in this thread ?

Besides that, I personaly think that UPnP technology isn't very mature at all at the moment, so I'm trying to keep away from it in my setup.

-
aleg

Possibly, although I don't think internet radio on the Uniti relies on the UPnP server to stream content.

I agree that UPnP technology is in it's early stages, however it is maturing fast.

Hi Tom,

A few things you could try -

Have you disabled Windows firewall while on your home network?
What router or switch are you using at home? Are you able to swap this for an alternative?
Is Windows Media Player running at all? This has its own built in UPNP sharing which may be clashing with the ports and announcements of your Foobar and Asset installs. Make sure you only run one at a time.
Can you try just using an alternative UPNP software, eg. Windows Media Player or Twonky?

John

Hi John,
I have not disabled the firewall, however it has exceptions set up for the UPnP servers.

I am running more than one UPnp server (Foobar and Asset), although i had been lead to believe they shouldn't clash. Previously, i was only running Foobar, but still had the same issues.
Is it possible to turn off the Windows Media Player server without disabling all streaming?
I'm using a standard O2 broadband router (Thomson TG585 v7).The only thing i haven't tried is another router.

The frustrating thing is that when the Uniti loses the server connection, it resets itself back to the 'chose UPnP server' screen, so loses the position in whatever playlist/album/folder you had navigated to.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom_W:

Is it possible to turn off the Windows Media Player server without disabling all streaming?

Yes Start 'Services', right click 'Windows Media Player network..' and 'Stop' it.

quote:

I'm using a standard O2 broadband router (Thomson TG585 v7).The only thing i haven't tried is another router.

I doubt it is the router itself - apart from a bad connection.
(I have one.) Does streaming with Windows Mediaplayer work though?

Personally I think a separate NAS is the best approach.

I don't think it's the router either - my connection is good, and i'm connected by wire.

Streaming from Windows Media player does work, although that has intermittently disconnected in use as well.

Hmmmm....

Aleg UPNP has been around for very many years haha.

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
Aleg UPNP has been around for very many years haha.

Which doesn't mean it is a mature technology in its implementations. Hohoho.

For what it was designed to do it does very well. I don't think UPNP was ever designed with hi end audio in mind. Does not mean its not mature. It is it works flawlessly for what it was designed for.

Hi Tom,

We have discovered a small subset of typically free ADSL modems that have a problem with UPnP streaming. We are still in the process of analysis but from what we can tell the broadcast discovery "UDP" packets that are used in UPnP to discover the servers on the network can be intermitently be filtered as they are broadcast from the server and go through the modem.

At the moment unless there is a firmware update from the manufacturer (which for free modems is rare), really there is only a couple of solutions:

1) Buy a new ADSL modem. I've normally found the Netgears to be reliable, butI'm sure there are many other brands that are fine.

2) Buy a small 4 port ethernet hub to plug inbetween your PC and the Uniti. This will mean the packets will flow through the hub, rather than through the ADSL modem. Hubs are typically dumb devices and hence will not mess with the traffic flow.

Hope that helps

Steve (R&D)

Steve

I agree. I always carry our MAC Airport Extreme when I visit dealers to do demos. It always works and I also recommend this to dealers because here in Spain the telephone providers, and I include the cable amd mobile companies, offer free of charge the biggest piece od cheap crap you can imagine.

If someone is spending that amount in a Uniti then at leat they should spend a little amount on a decent switch.

Cheers

Gordon

Steve,
I'm afraid it's not the solution to this issue.
In my home configuration, Uniti can adress 2 UpNP music servers : first one is a home made PC (Windows 7) on which River Media Center server is running; second one is a Synology DS209+II NAS with embedded server. An ADSL modem router (Freebox)interfaces Uniti and servers. Network connection is either WiFi or ethernet wire (same issue by using one or the other). A music library (FLAC and WAV files) is shared by the servers.
When Uniti plays music by using PC server, I have no problem, everything is OK.
When Uniti plays music by using NAS, I encounter exactly the same problem than Tom or Michael (see other referenced thread): my Uniti keep loosing its uPnP connection (streaming buffer is almost empty). The issue occurs frequently, with the same music files but is not strictly repeatable.
Of course, as you suggested, I tried to interface directly Uniti and servers by using a hub/switch but the problem still occurs.
I contacted Synology support team and done some tests with them. Without success : Synology team have not Uniti software model and cannot simulate the issue.
Now I try to collect some information on french Naim forum. I have not received many answer at this time. Of course I shall share information with you.
My last question is : the same streaming software will be running on UnitQute ?
Regards

quote:

I'm afraid it's not the solution to this issue.
In my home configuration, Uniti can adress 2 UpNP mu

Hi All,

From my experience so far UPnP streaming problems on a wired connection fall into 3 different camps:

1. Firewall and devices filtering traffic - either in the ADSL modem or the PC has its software firewall setup aggressively.

2. NAS's that when doing other tasks cannot achieve the necessary throughout rates of streaming.

3. Power management

---

1. Can be proved by using a hub and as a test, disable any software firewalls running (eg. Windows Firewall).

2. On some NAS's when they rescan their music library to populate the built-in UPnP servers database, they use up so much CPU time they cannot actually stream music. To stream reliably a 44.1/16 WAV the NAS must be able to supply on average 176.4KBytes/Sec. That doesn't sound much, but often throughput on cheap NAS's can go down to a trickle when doing background tasks. On Uniti we pre-buffer 4 seconds worth before playing audio and aim to try and keep that buffer full with 8 secs worth of audio at 44.1/16 WAV. As audio playback is a realtime task, it will show up a weaknesses in a NAS, that otherwise would be ok just for storing files for casual browsing. Naim have written a PC application that we will be making available soon that simulates the read requirements of HDX (and also can work for Uniti). It then measures all the throughputs over a configurable period of time and will tell you if the system will stream reliably. Naturally the app can't tell you exactly where the bottleneck is, but it does give a wealth of measured metrics and also gives users confidence that their systems will stream reliably every time.

3. If a device goes to sleep (spins down hard drives, reduce CPU clock speeds etc), then the wake up time on some cheap NAS's can be a long time (often more than 15secs). This in turn can make the Uniti think the device is faulty. For a consistent streaming experience turn off any power management features on the NAS.


Maybe that little lot may give the clue you are looking for.

If you're a bit techy then download a copy of wireshark (google it!), which is a rather good open source ethernet capture app. Run it on your PC, with a hub between Uniti, PC and problematic device and send the Naim helpdesk a packet capture of your system failing. We'll then have a look and see if we can spot anything suspicious going on.

Regards

Steve (R&D)

PS. Uniti and Qute both use the same streaming core.

quote:

Originally posted by Stevesky:
If you're a bit techy then download a copy of wireshark (google it!), which is a rather good open source ethernet capture app. Run it on your PC, with a hub between Uniti, PC and problematic device and send the Naim helpdesk a packet capture of your system failing. We'll then have a look and see if we can spot anything suspicious going on.

Would that work if the HUB is a typical 4 port ADSL router and the ports are switched?

FWIW I am also reasonablly convinced that having a network with multiple switches and multiple uPnP renderers can be problematic if all the uPnP devices are not attached to the same switch.

Hi Michael,

If it's a hub then it electrically is dumb and what goes in one socket will come out of all the others. By no means ideal for a large or busy network, but great for tracking down problems.

If it's a switch (which is then not a hub by definition) then it will not work under normal conditions.

Here is a Wikipedia link to what I'm going on about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_hub

Regards

Steve (R&D)