Speakers - B&W, Naim, Linn,.......
Posted by: plynnplynn on 29 April 2002
I tried to raise this issue a couple of weeks ago within a thread but either that particular thread had run its course or else nobody was interested in discussing the topic.
It is clear that SBLs and Isobariks are favourites with Naim users - and there are of course various others 'favourites' which I needn't mention, as they come up time and again.
The reason I make this post is to hear (hopefully) what members think of the B&W 800 Nautilus Series. I have read a few posts about these but not many. Also I haven't seen B&W and SBL or B&W and Isobarik mentioned often in the same thread. Is there any reason for this?
I know that my local Naim dealer has a strong B&W preference.
Terry
It is clear that SBLs and Isobariks are favourites with Naim users - and there are of course various others 'favourites' which I needn't mention, as they come up time and again.
The reason I make this post is to hear (hopefully) what members think of the B&W 800 Nautilus Series. I have read a few posts about these but not many. Also I haven't seen B&W and SBL or B&W and Isobarik mentioned often in the same thread. Is there any reason for this?
I know that my local Naim dealer has a strong B&W preference.
Terry
Posted on: 29 April 2002 by monkfish
Hi
I have heard the Nautilus range of speakers and liked them,I suspect we have the same dealer (R. Richie)they are fine speakers with beautiful clarity and punch but on my budget rather expensive.
I bought a pair of Isobariks along with other equipment so I didn't go out looking for them specifically, but on hearing them had no qualms buying them. My system has undergone various upgrades since then and they have just got better and better and I can't imagine being without them now.
They sound very different from anything else I've heard, lovely mid-range and treble and truly staggering bass weight and timbre (drum kit thumps into your chest at higher levels but also fascinating to hear the different tones from each drum being struck).
Also a consideration would be the fact that second hand Isobariks are available (I know of a pair being advertised at the moment for £550 in Perth)whereas second hand Nautilus would be a rarer find. If you want to hear a pair you are welcome to drop me a mail (see profile)and hear my set. Happy hunting.
Regards
Jim
I have heard the Nautilus range of speakers and liked them,I suspect we have the same dealer (R. Richie)they are fine speakers with beautiful clarity and punch but on my budget rather expensive.
I bought a pair of Isobariks along with other equipment so I didn't go out looking for them specifically, but on hearing them had no qualms buying them. My system has undergone various upgrades since then and they have just got better and better and I can't imagine being without them now.
They sound very different from anything else I've heard, lovely mid-range and treble and truly staggering bass weight and timbre (drum kit thumps into your chest at higher levels but also fascinating to hear the different tones from each drum being struck).
Also a consideration would be the fact that second hand Isobariks are available (I know of a pair being advertised at the moment for £550 in Perth)whereas second hand Nautilus would be a rarer find. If you want to hear a pair you are welcome to drop me a mail (see profile)and hear my set. Happy hunting.
Regards
Jim
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by Alex S.
Many Naim dealers are very keen on B&W. I'm often left wondering why. I lived with N805s for a year. The kevlar midrange driver is superb. The Nautilus tweeter, despite all the song and dance, is IMO average at best. Bass had a tendency to boom and get porty.
I think there are plenty of better alternatives. Here's a few, all very different and different prices:
Latest Royds (well reported but I haven't heard them), Linn Ninkas (excellent value floorstanders), various Shahinians (unique omni-directional presentation), Wilson Benesch Arcs (revealing but analytical standmounts), Naim Allaes.
In the s/h world there's not much to beat either Kans or Isobariks.
Just for information, the N805s were greatly improved by being on hne granite stands instead of B&W's own.
Alex
I think there are plenty of better alternatives. Here's a few, all very different and different prices:
Latest Royds (well reported but I haven't heard them), Linn Ninkas (excellent value floorstanders), various Shahinians (unique omni-directional presentation), Wilson Benesch Arcs (revealing but analytical standmounts), Naim Allaes.
In the s/h world there's not much to beat either Kans or Isobariks.
Just for information, the N805s were greatly improved by being on hne granite stands instead of B&W's own.
Alex
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by Matthew T
Terry,
I am running a pair of N804s and am generally happy with them. They do really show up the quality of what you put in them. Initially I was running CDX/102/180 and found the treble a little harsh and the bass a bit on the boomy side, addition of NAPSC and Hicap sorted out alot of those issues. Also, sitting them on screws into the floor really helped tighten everything up.
I am using them in a room which is certainly to small and they really could do with a lot more room behind them.
I listened to a lot of speakers when auditioning and eventually found that these came closet to what I desired, detail, frequency response (bass certainly doesn't go all the way down but is a lot more extended then any standmount I heard, didn't like the N805s), realisim (does it sound anything like live music) etc. Certainly not perfect but did the job for me.
I think you will find that BW has a bad name amongst some Naim users.
Alex, not sure I would agree regarding the tweeter although haven't made very extended comparisons with other speakers.
cheers
Matthew
I am running a pair of N804s and am generally happy with them. They do really show up the quality of what you put in them. Initially I was running CDX/102/180 and found the treble a little harsh and the bass a bit on the boomy side, addition of NAPSC and Hicap sorted out alot of those issues. Also, sitting them on screws into the floor really helped tighten everything up.
I am using them in a room which is certainly to small and they really could do with a lot more room behind them.
I listened to a lot of speakers when auditioning and eventually found that these came closet to what I desired, detail, frequency response (bass certainly doesn't go all the way down but is a lot more extended then any standmount I heard, didn't like the N805s), realisim (does it sound anything like live music) etc. Certainly not perfect but did the job for me.
I think you will find that BW has a bad name amongst some Naim users.
Alex, not sure I would agree regarding the tweeter although haven't made very extended comparisons with other speakers.
cheers
Matthew
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by Alex S.
I lived with metal dome tweeters of one sort or another for about 15 years. Provided you can find a soft dome one that has the speed of metal, I find them preferable.
I managed to blow up 3 Nautilus tweeters in a year but seem to have been unusual in this regard. It did give me the chance to dismantle the Nautilus tweeter and, regardless of how it sounds, it sure don't cost much to make. I'm sure the R&D budget was huge though ;o)
Nonethless, I agree with you, the 804 with good electronics is a big improvement on the 805. Also, like you it seems, I discovered that speakers in the 1 - 3K ball park involve compromises no matter what you end up with. I wonder if you can spend 10K on speakers and not have to compromise?
Alex
I managed to blow up 3 Nautilus tweeters in a year but seem to have been unusual in this regard. It did give me the chance to dismantle the Nautilus tweeter and, regardless of how it sounds, it sure don't cost much to make. I'm sure the R&D budget was huge though ;o)
Nonethless, I agree with you, the 804 with good electronics is a big improvement on the 805. Also, like you it seems, I discovered that speakers in the 1 - 3K ball park involve compromises no matter what you end up with. I wonder if you can spend 10K on speakers and not have to compromise?
Alex
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by redeye
Interesting.
I know a technician who is regularly called on to fix up-market hifi equipment. He had cause to pull a Nautilus tweeter to bits recently. Some guy fried his 804s while partying.
His one word synopsis to describe the bits in this tweeter....junk.
Go easy
I know a technician who is regularly called on to fix up-market hifi equipment. He had cause to pull a Nautilus tweeter to bits recently. Some guy fried his 804s while partying.
His one word synopsis to describe the bits in this tweeter....junk.
Go easy
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by Colin Lorenson
I recently upgraded from 804 to 802's. The 804 is a good speaker system - the 802 knocks it for six (as you would expect for the price).
I have never been convinced by Naim speakers - They always sound like they are working too hard to me - some call this exciting / dynamic etc.. I just find them edgy..
I recently heard the Allae v an 805. The Allae sounded so boxy it wasn't funny.
The 802 gives amazing detail, dynamics, and most of all scale without strain. They groove!!Despite their size they are amazingly open and sound like a great mini-monitor with deep bass. As Shankly said "a good biggun will always beat a good littl'un".
You can blow B&W tweeters, but only if you try really really hard with an amp that is straining with the load. I blew one but that was when my TT fell off the wall shelf and presumably a huge transient went through it.
Having previously demmed the 500 at home I think the 802/500 combo will be a great match. 135's compress a little when you really crank it up.
For the first time in my long hi-fi experience I now have a system where the speakers aren't the weakest link. I urge anyone looking for a speaker in this price range to take off the blinkers and dem them.
Colin Lorenson
I have never been convinced by Naim speakers - They always sound like they are working too hard to me - some call this exciting / dynamic etc.. I just find them edgy..
I recently heard the Allae v an 805. The Allae sounded so boxy it wasn't funny.
The 802 gives amazing detail, dynamics, and most of all scale without strain. They groove!!Despite their size they are amazingly open and sound like a great mini-monitor with deep bass. As Shankly said "a good biggun will always beat a good littl'un".
You can blow B&W tweeters, but only if you try really really hard with an amp that is straining with the load. I blew one but that was when my TT fell off the wall shelf and presumably a huge transient went through it.
Having previously demmed the 500 at home I think the 802/500 combo will be a great match. 135's compress a little when you really crank it up.
For the first time in my long hi-fi experience I now have a system where the speakers aren't the weakest link. I urge anyone looking for a speaker in this price range to take off the blinkers and dem them.
Colin Lorenson
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by plynnplynn
Thanks fellow Scots from Dundee and Montrose. You know obviously of Robert's liking for B&W. I really don't have an opinion because any dem. that I have had with Robert Ritchie has been to listen to other equipment. He has however used B&W speakers when I have been there but not in a comparative sense with other speakers (and I hadn't the wit to ask to hear others to make a comparison).
I haven't heard Isobariks or SBLs either and so I am trying to elicit some information via others experiences.
From what I have heard from reading comments in the Forum the SBLs worry me a bit in that many people talk of them being difficult to set up properly. Certainly people say that when they are set up and placed properly they 'sing'.
The Isobariks on the other hand may well be more my cup of tea as they use the same drive units as my existing speakers. I suspect that the sound may be more appealing to me.
It is great what deductions one can try to make from others comments. Of course I know I really would need to hear the speakers myself before making any decision about change.
Thanks for the kind offer to listen to the Isobariks and thanks for the information about the Perth pair.
Terry
I haven't heard Isobariks or SBLs either and so I am trying to elicit some information via others experiences.
From what I have heard from reading comments in the Forum the SBLs worry me a bit in that many people talk of them being difficult to set up properly. Certainly people say that when they are set up and placed properly they 'sing'.
The Isobariks on the other hand may well be more my cup of tea as they use the same drive units as my existing speakers. I suspect that the sound may be more appealing to me.
It is great what deductions one can try to make from others comments. Of course I know I really would need to hear the speakers myself before making any decision about change.
Thanks for the kind offer to listen to the Isobariks and thanks for the information about the Perth pair.
Terry
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by Scott Mckenzie
My usual vouch from the corner regarding the Dyn's....I much preferred the 803's to the Allae, but neither compared to the Confidence 5....
I am also looking forward to hearing the new Confidence range, thely finally look stunning aswell as (I assume) sounding it too....
I am also looking forward to hearing the new Confidence range, thely finally look stunning aswell as (I assume) sounding it too....
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by connon price
Terry,
Posted on: 30 April 2002 by connon price
Terry,
I have only lived with epos 11, rega jura and now sbl. do you still have the two flatcaps? I would think those would need to become hicaps before an sbl would work very well with your system. I run a cd3 into 72/super/250 and it is enjoyable, just not as good as the naimed lp12. I am not a fan of the B&Ws. it is a completely different sound/music experience from naim drivers. You mentioned concern that sbls were difficult to set correctly. At least they can be, and then sing they do. Good luck. Connon
I have only lived with epos 11, rega jura and now sbl. do you still have the two flatcaps? I would think those would need to become hicaps before an sbl would work very well with your system. I run a cd3 into 72/super/250 and it is enjoyable, just not as good as the naimed lp12. I am not a fan of the B&Ws. it is a completely different sound/music experience from naim drivers. You mentioned concern that sbls were difficult to set correctly. At least they can be, and then sing they do. Good luck. Connon
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by NigelP
I have been the owner of all three of these and my response is:
I started with the Ninka on the end of a NAC52/NAP250 and they sounded superb. It was when I tried the Nautilus 804 that I realised that there was quite a lot of detailed missing. Having upgraded I then needed a second NAP250 to ensure that the speakers didn't put the amps into an area where they overrun and cause the tweeter to burn out. This was a brilliant combination. The speed and presence was awesome. Then came the NAP500 and they got better. I now have a pair of Naim NBLs and they are fabulous (now that I have the modified NXO and they are positioned correctly). IMHO opinion they are better the than the 802 which I find too neutral to the point of boredom. I recently heard the awesome 800 (10k a pop) and these are simply the best speakers I've ever heard. The top end is sublime, the midrange is sweet and the bass well controlled. I would love to see B&W make them go active with three NAP500s. The moral of this then, if there is one, that they all make good loudspeakers (although I think that Linn have lost it with the Komri) and it depends where you are in their line up. What I like about B&W is that:
quote:
It depends where you are in the hierarchies
I started with the Ninka on the end of a NAC52/NAP250 and they sounded superb. It was when I tried the Nautilus 804 that I realised that there was quite a lot of detailed missing. Having upgraded I then needed a second NAP250 to ensure that the speakers didn't put the amps into an area where they overrun and cause the tweeter to burn out. This was a brilliant combination. The speed and presence was awesome. Then came the NAP500 and they got better. I now have a pair of Naim NBLs and they are fabulous (now that I have the modified NXO and they are positioned correctly). IMHO opinion they are better the than the 802 which I find too neutral to the point of boredom. I recently heard the awesome 800 (10k a pop) and these are simply the best speakers I've ever heard. The top end is sublime, the midrange is sweet and the bass well controlled. I would love to see B&W make them go active with three NAP500s. The moral of this then, if there is one, that they all make good loudspeakers (although I think that Linn have lost it with the Komri) and it depends where you are in their line up. What I like about B&W is that:
- they are easy to set up
- they look smart
- there's an entire range to select from
- they seem to be good value for money
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by Alex S.
quote:A mere 40K. Can't wait.
I would love to see B&W make them go active with three NAP500s.
Alex
Posted on: 01 May 2002 by naimless!
Hi plnnplynn
Love the 804's!
demo'd Naim/Dynaudio/Spendor/Linn/PMC...etc etc....ask Robert, I tried everything!!!
4 months later, I got the 804's which was considerably over the budget for me, but worth the overspend to get exactly what I wanted. I got some advice of matthew months back, same system, but me's a gotta the xps!!! Get one now ross!!I concur with all the posts here. Ross and Colin in particular, although Matthew gives a good description of their capabilities. Dynaudio would be my preferred 2nd option. But IMHO nothing beats the Nautilus range. IT IS SUBJECTIVE THOUGH AND YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT SERIOUS DEMO'S FIRST!!!
Regards the tweater, I did have some initial problems with overbrightness. This has gone, but I do detect major distortion after 11 o'clock position. This is on the verge of being seriously loud for me, and I don't think this will improve with further running in. I will of course wait and see as its only about 3/4 months now so far.
I have read some threads that this series is quite hard to drive. Apart from the tweater/volume problem I haven't experienced this. But wonder if, based on nigelP's post, my problem is with the amp here, and I should consider a 2nd 180 or a single 250 to help?
Heard the 800's Nigel and they are indeedy simply breathtaking!!
pete carlin
Love the 804's!
demo'd Naim/Dynaudio/Spendor/Linn/PMC...etc etc....ask Robert, I tried everything!!!
4 months later, I got the 804's which was considerably over the budget for me, but worth the overspend to get exactly what I wanted. I got some advice of matthew months back, same system, but me's a gotta the xps!!! Get one now ross!!I concur with all the posts here. Ross and Colin in particular, although Matthew gives a good description of their capabilities. Dynaudio would be my preferred 2nd option. But IMHO nothing beats the Nautilus range. IT IS SUBJECTIVE THOUGH AND YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT SERIOUS DEMO'S FIRST!!!
Regards the tweater, I did have some initial problems with overbrightness. This has gone, but I do detect major distortion after 11 o'clock position. This is on the verge of being seriously loud for me, and I don't think this will improve with further running in. I will of course wait and see as its only about 3/4 months now so far.
I have read some threads that this series is quite hard to drive. Apart from the tweater/volume problem I haven't experienced this. But wonder if, based on nigelP's post, my problem is with the amp here, and I should consider a 2nd 180 or a single 250 to help?
Heard the 800's Nigel and they are indeedy simply breathtaking!!
pete carlin