French retirement protests

quote:

Originally posted by naim_nymph:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike-B:
It looks like the French are getting into the spirit of the Soixante Huitards (sixty eighters)
Seems they do not accept (again) the "equality" part of their revolution & need to be a little bit more equal than the rest of Europe in retirement.

I just googled retirement ages for EU & USA and found the existing French age of 60 with the option to start at 57 is the lowest in EU by some margin

Belgium 65
Denmark 65
France 60
Germany 67 !!!
Greece 65
Italy 65
Holland 65
Spain 65
Sweden 65
UK 65
USA 66

But this retirement illustration is only for common working class people...

It doesn't show the retirement age for the executive, top management and directors who commonly retire at 50 or 55 with big bungs and golden pensions that working people can only imagine from a lotto win.

Then there are the rich people who retire at any age they choose, and many of these Rockafeller types only work though their middle age because they enjoy ripping people off and exporting their untaxed millions to the British Virgin Islands... to where the real deficit money has gone!

and it’s still going there by the billion! ...but heck, we’re jolly British with stiff upper lip, we don't riot like the French because we have the resolve to work on though old age until we drop dead with exhaustion, so we don’t need a pension. Let those hard working wealthy people afford luxury villas, yachts, and super-cars in playground planet Earth, after all it is their wonderful world to play with in sheer luxury, who are we to argue?… us common people should put on our flat caps and pay for it for them by working harder and harder for longer and longer because we’re all in this together you know.

I may consider French citizenship one day soon

Debs

Miss/Ms/mrs Nymph.

Excellent. Plus one from my humble self.

quote:

Work longer. Surprisingly, a lot of 65 years actually want to carry on working,

And a lot like me would rather not - I've done my time, I've payed my dues.
The tax payer isn't subsidising me as I've paid in for years and years.

Lots of young people expect a free education (well at least attend school - what no Latin classes) which the tax payer has to subsidise. The older people may not be keen on that.

Just looking at both sides of the argument.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
- what no Latin classes?

Well it's been a right Horribilis up the Annus... as the high class Queen once said.

quote:

Well it's been a right Horribilis up the Annus... as the high class Queen once said.

That's Greek blokes for you?

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Chaps

This is all simplistic nonsense...
1. Work longer. Surprisingly, a lot of 65 years actually want to carry on working, so that is an easy option for some.
Mick

Yes Mick, that certainly was simplistic nonsense... why do you bother write it?

Anyway…

The fact is, there are very few jobs going around now, most people are just losing them, and jobs opportunities will get very rare very soon.

This new ruthless Tory government cabinet is a wall to wall multi-millionaires club who are experts at getting around tax law for their own money and for that of the City and big businesses. This money is getting systematically shipped out of the UK to off shore havens where it is except from tax, however this despicable theft is perfectly legal, after all they are the government, they can make up or get around the laws.

The Tory cabinet is mostly muppet puppet politicians for the obscene wealthy ruling classes who use them to get their corrupt and criminal financial actively legalised under UK law.
The Rich do not pay Tax, never did and never willingly would do so, they leave that for the poor and most levels of the working classes though PAYE.

The Tories are working very fast to turn UK into a sweat-shop nation with a very low paid workforce, and to do this they first need to create an underclass of mass unemployment and poverty so they may then hatch out their next plan to attack the Unions - and the millions of ordinary hard working decent people who belong to them, and drive down their pay and working conditions in order to maximize profits for the industrialist masters who may then railroad the next billions of pounds worth of their ill gotten gains to off shore tax havens yet again.

Anyone here who voted Tory should now step up and apologise, you have voted in the most ruthless, nasty breed of criminals since Adolf Hitler become chancellor of Germany.

Never in the field of British politics have so many people been shafted by so few.

Naim Nymph

I only commented on pensions and contributions.

Public sector workers are expected to pay an additional 3% contribution, that hardly seems the end of the world and they will still receive a final salary pension.

As regards to the rest of your hysterical waffle, the Tories are doing precisely what they promised they would do in their manifesto and they still seem to have broad support from middle england.

The reality is that these cuts will cause minor financial hardship to most people, the front line services will run pretty much as before and a jobs will be lost in the public sector which hopefully will be soaked up by a growing private sector. In twenty years from now, all this will be something by our grandchildren will regard as a non event.

If that really does upset you, possibly you should consider emigrating.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
[QUOTE]Work longer. Surprisingly, a lot of 65 years actually want to carry on working,

And a lot like me would rather not - I've done my time, I've payed my dues.
The tax payer isn't subsidising me as I've paid in for years and years.

Lots of young people expect a free education (well at least attend school - what no Latin classes) which the tax payer has to subsidise. The older people may not be keen on that.

Just looking at both sides of the argument.[/QUOTE

ROTF

Sorry you have never paid in enough NI contributions to finance your OAP, none of us have and thats the problem. If you live to say 85, your contributions will have a negative equity effect and your children will be subsidising you, hence you either pay more or pay for longer and retire later, no one owes you a subsidised pension.

Regards

Mick

I suggest Society simply learns to adapt and consider a solution to the problems in a manner some way between Logan's Run and Make Room! Make Room!

Of course age limits will be determined by your preference for book/film versions, which in turn will no doubt lead to protests and struggles between the dirty thirties and the key to doorers, if only to prove some people are never happy.

I still suspect though that our 'problems' are small beer compared with the hardships of most of the world's population. Be happy.

Jamie

I have a second home in Spain and believe me the Spanish people would love to "suffer" like we are.

They have 21% unemployment and less than half our national wage. If anyone thinks it is tough here, try going out there.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by naim_nymph:

This new ruthless Tory government cabinet

Not the original subject of the thread I know, but now, more than if not ever, certainly a long time, people need to stand up and be counted.

It is indisputable that the gap between the rich and the poor in the UK has been increasingly steadily for at least the last 30 years. The CSR announced yesterday increases this gap even further. Ever measure in it penalizes the poor while the rich get let off once again as the working class are made to pay for the mistakes of the ruling class. Never have I seen so many Tories having so many orgasms about kicking poor people in the face. As for education, "most people are now in full time education until they are 21" is untrue. Whilst it's true the number of people going to university is at its highest ever (no thanks to the Tories), it is currently around 30%. But more to the point it is income and class related. Judging by the CSR, in an ideal Tory world, public libraries and education for the working class wouldn't exist.

Steeve

Steeve

42% of last years school leavers went onto further education and the target is 60% by 2020.

Libraries have books that are out of date and their use is declining at a rapid rate. There is no good reason to keep them open when better and more up to date information is available on the internet. Therefore, yes libraries should be considered for closure.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Naim Nymph
I only commented on pensions and contributions.

Oh! no you didn't... you said, "1. Work longer. Surprisingly, a lot of 65 years actually want to carry on working, so that is an easy option for some." ...and that is about employment, and the near future is about rising unemployment caused by deliberate tory government policy.
It's one thing for a 65 year old presently getting paid full state pension and full company pension who chooses to work on for even more money out of personal choice. But it's quite another thing entirely when a 65 year old (in future) will be force worked with no choice except to face grinding poverty if he or she don't.

quote:

Public sector workers are expected to pay an additional 3% contribution, that hardly seems the end of the world and they will still receive a final salary pension.

One BBC news report said 500,000 public sector workers would lose their jobs, so they won't be paying in anything in at all after getting sacked.
Also, many pensions are having their final salary pension stopped, which includes Royal Mail employees, plus our 60 company pension age put back to 65 years of age for full company pension, in other words we have to work an extra 5 years for nothing. Meanwhile the Senior Managers continue to retire at 55 with even more money! (are we really all in this together?)
However, this fiddle is nothing to do with the credit-crunch or deficit, just more corporate corruption with a privatisation greed grab prelude!

quote:

...the Tories are doing precisely what they promised they would do in their manifesto and they still seem to have broad support from middle england.

Yes, they said, "We're all in this together" and then Dave said, "You may find your self out of a job, and lose your pay, you may then lose your home, lose your wife and kids, you may lose your marbles too, but remember this, we in the conservative party do care a lot about our off shore accounts and lavish lifestyles, so whatever happens to you working class people you've got to realise it's all for the Greater Good!"

quote:

The reality is that these cuts will cause minor financial hardship to most people,

Yeah, only a few million people will suffer huge financial hardship, but at least Dave and Nick can tell them it's for the greater good, i'm sure that will please them.

This budget is only the first of many, the next will be far worse!

The cunning tory plan is to create an underclass in which people will become desperate for any work at lower pay, this is happening already but it will also cause the crime rate to soar, the rich won't be to bothered about this in their gated communities but the poor unemployed will suffer the consequences.
The tories intend to turn factories and workhouses into secure areas where HMP prisoners can work off their debt to society... no wages, no pensions, no rights, just maximum security and maximum profits, more millions for the great new world of super-capitalism.

So basically you have the formula for criminalizing the poor and forcing them into forced-work concentration camps. There will probably be some prison riots, but the establishment have guns and they won't mind shooting a few, and if things get really out of hand, i hate to think what final solution SS (Social Security) Obersturmführer Pickles whispers in his fuhrer's ear.

Mick Parry is absolute correct in his analsis that the old age pension is not financially viable in the long term. I can give a precise personal example of this.
When I moved to France some 21 years ago, I chose to continue paying in my class 4 NI contributions until I had the full quota of 40 years. This cost me around £300 per annum as a once off yearly payment, the last payment being in 2005. This now gives me a full married man's old-age pension of £168 odd per week, ie., £8,736 per year. It doesn't take a genius mathmatician to work out that a payment of a £8,736 per annum against a yearly input of just £300, is financially unsupportable. Yes I know that I paid in a lot more than that when I worked in the UK but no way do the maths work out. If I live another 30 yeras until I'm 95 (likely as my Nan died at 96, an aunt at 98 and I have another Aunt still alive at 99) then I will have received a quarter of a million quid from the State in old age pension, more if I were to add in the index-linked inflation.
I'm not grumbling: why would I on such a good investment? But it is future generations who will be picking up the tab for this and I'm not sure that that is entirely fair.
As for the French, well they need to think seriously about the reality rather than trying to bring down the government that they elected to bring in pension reform. The French are the French however and will always protest if they see their precious "Couverture Sociale" attacked (their view not mine) in any way.
Mercifully, the petrol shortages are not much in evidence in this lovely part of the world, so life goes on.
Ciao,
Dave

Naim Nymph

You are grossly exagerating the position.

We are basically only returning to 2006 levels and things weren't that bad even then.

Anyone who is approaching 60 or 65 is by definition a baby boomer (I am 61) and we are the luckiest generation alive because we have had a lifetime of economic growth and anyone with half a brain should be sitting on a pile of property and a nice juicy pension. If they dont have a decent pension, then to be blunt they are too bloody thick to be allowed to walk the streets. Certainly they should not be floated by the tax payer.

On your points about the economy in general, the sad fact is that we have an unsubstainable pile of debt and we need to reduce it fast for the sake of our children.

The public sector and public services will have to take the brunt but that I am afraid is the way it is going to be. The Conservatives are doing precisely what they were elected to do and so far they seem to be resolute in their determination to proceed and that is good.

Just take it on the chin and stop whinging like some old woman. Think of your children, our generation created this mess and it is up to us to clean it up.

Anyone with an uncleared credit card bill or a bank loan has helped create this mess and we have to return to the mind set that you can only spend what you have. Fortunately personal debt in the UK is now reducing so the message is getting through.

Regards

Mick

quote:

our generation created this mess

Agreed I didn't create the mess, but you can't shoulder all the blame Mick: you are not solely to blame for all the ills of the world: the blame is shared with investment bankers, management consultants, property speculators, Tories, bleeding heart liberals, Gordon Brown, Tony Brown (oh no he played for West Brom so not him), the milk snatcher, greedy executives, Wreckers of law and order, Communists, Maoists, Trotskyists, neo-Trotskyists, crypto-Trotskyists, union leaders, Communist union leaders, atheists, agnostics, long-haired weirdos, short-haired weirdos, vandals, hooligans, football supporters (except Ipswich Town ones), namby-pamby probation officers, rapists, papists, papist rapists, foreign surgeons - headshrinkers, who ought to be locked up, Wedgwood Benn, keg bitter, punk rock, glue-sniffers, "Play For Today", Clive Jenkins, Roy Jenkins, Up Jenkins, up everybody's, Chinese restaurants - why do you think Windsor Castle is ringed with Chinese restaurants? Thugs, bully-boys, psychopaths, sacked policemen, security guards, sacked security guards, racialists, anybody-bashers, rear Admirals, Vice Admirals, fascists, neo-fascists, crypto-fascists, loyalists, neo-loyalists, crypto-loyalists.... [sorry drifted in to Reggie Perrin there]

suffices to say - those of us who paid in for years for pensions are entitled to get what we paid for and what's more the Crown Court no less, in a recent ruling, agrees.

quote:

It doesn't show the retirement age for the executive, top management and directors who commonly retire at 50 or 55 with big bungs and golden pensions that working people can only imagine from a lotto win.

That's the way it is, it'll never change ... however, Richard Thompson once wrote

Oh the poor they will be rich and the rich they will be poor
That's according to Saul when he wrote down the law
And I'd much rather be rich after than before

quote:

On your points about the economy in general, the sad fact is that we have an unsustainable pile of debt and we need to reduce it fast for the sake of our children.
The public sector and public services will have to take the brunt but that I am afraid is the way it is going to be. The Conservatives are doing precisely what they were elected to do and so far they seem to be resolute in their determination to proceed and that is good.

Mick, this is just more of what you don’t understand, you really ought to take your blinkers off. The Tories are not removing any debt for the younger generation!.. they’re far to busy ripping off the poor and the working classes so they can satisfy the obscenely wealthy power barons that dishonestly purchased the election win for them. The Tory cabinet is a corrupt outfit of millionaires, none of which know or care about the young, the sick, the disabled, the poor, and that’s before you get to; what’s it like living on 300 quid a week and a big mortgage to pay for. They are purely there to screw the working classes of the UK so badly it will be like going back in time to the great depression of the 1920’s. Meanwhile it will be business as usual on the dividends and shares transferred to the off shore tax havens for the City, and the mega-rich allegiance to the Tory party. The focus is on supreme wealth creation for the uber-classes whilst reducing UK’s working class population to slave-force measly basic wage market, with no hope of retirement, no dental plan just halitosis for all.

Let’s get this strait; this Tory government considers working people untermensch to be used, abused, worked ‘til they drop. They’re well aware of the well proven correlation between living longer due to retiring earlier at a reasonable age, this is why people live longer these days. The Tories know that when they force work people into their old age they won’t live to get very old, the saving on pension payments will be so huge they will once again have a surplus to rake off, ...and channel into off-shore accounts for their kindred in the superior non-tax paying uber-classes.

quote:

...our generation created this mess and it is up to us to clean it up.

It wasn’t a generation that caused this mess, it was the established order that existed before my time, and maybe before your time too - just. But you won’t clean it up because you’re now sitting smug with a company pension, lump sum, second property etc. A few years from now you’ll have a full state pension too, game set and match eh?
But you’re not a self made man, Mick.
You were only born at the right time, had an easy job with great conditions, got a bung before you left. There are plenty of younger people who are smarter than you, work harder than you, and deserve more than you, but they are a younger age so lose out with the age discriminating scale of hardship imposed upon them by the new state pension age changes, and also stressed out more by changing UK employment law which gives them less pay and a ever decreasing quality of life.
It’s all profits before people these days and if you think things will get better, you’re mistaken. It’s now been well and truly proven that capitalism doesn’t work, it’s not sustainable, and this new fascist super-capitalism breed of Tory will only serve to create such supreme inequality, like is happening in too many other places around the world, it may be sadly true that only a nuke-war or incident of such will eventually end it all.
But i hope not, rather have Labour win the next election.

People who voted Tory in the election should now post in and sincerely apologise for being so totally daft and making such a big blunder….

quote:

Originally posted by naim_nymph:
The Tories are not removing any debt for the younger generation!..

Indeed. At latest estimates based on the proposed changes a student leaving university at 21 will already have debts of about £40,000. How does that sit with a desire to get rid of "unsustainable debt"? But, if not a primary consideration, as I have already said, it is a calculated bonus for the Tories to discourage working-class people from further education. The chances of ever buying their own house are also extremely remote unless they have some sort of inherited wealth.

Thank you Debs for taking the time to write such an impassioned post. I enjoyed reading it very much.

quote:

Just take it on the chin and stop whinging like some old woman. Think of your children, our generation created this mess and it is up to us to clean it up.

I wonder if you could take it on the chin if you were to lose your job and then your house and possibly your marriage, but then that`s not likely to happen as these cuts will not affect you, oh and let me guess you more than likely retired early in your fifty`s say. You seem only to surface on this forum when there is a chance to act and talk like a right pompous twat

Chaps

The simple truth is that we only have a few alternatives.

Reduce the debt or risk losing our AAA rating. If that happens you will really know the meaning of being in the shit. There will be less borrowing and interest rates will rocket.

You could possibly reduce the debt over a longer period of time but in reality that would mean wasting billions to pay interest charges on the debt.

There is no easy answer. We are morally bound to clear the debt fast for the sake of our children, so of you come across as the type of parent who would pass their credit card bills onto their children.

We created the mess, so we should clear it up.

Regards

Mick

Here in Switzerland, we are entitled to a full retirement pension at 65 (men) and 64 (women), provided we have contributed over 44 years. The actual age of retirement is very close to these legal limits. My only fear is thus that our civil servants could also start to protest or, worse, go on strike ...

Sorry Mick - wrong - "WE" did not create this mess. But you are so right about who will pay to clear it up.

We all need to face up to the facts - hard facts.
The Telegraph has a good report on this in today's Money section (but I guess some readers would rather die than buy that Tory rag)

If the Labour government's annual expenditure between 2000 & 2010 had kept on track with inflation, then UK's public spending budget would have risen from £343bn to aprx £450bn.
BUT - last year we sent £669bn, this year we will be spending £697bn.

2000 we had a surplus income/expenditure
2010 we have a (aprx) 170bn deficit. Thats an ANNUAL deficit

Who was in charge during these 10 years ??? And don't blame the financial crash or the bankers, the public spending budget went into a deficit in 2002/3, in the times of plenty & long before the crash.
Labour was in charge & its they that managed the budget from a surplus situation into the worst deficit in peacetime history.

I am no real fan of any of the parties we have, lets say I see some good & bad in them all; but I just hope that the gamble that Osborne/Cameron has embarked on pays off. And I further hope that the very understandable negative public reactions such as written in this post string regarding the realignment of public expenses does not mean another labour government at the next election. We all need to remember which party caused such irresponsible mayhem, not the one that (we hope) is fixing it.

Mike

WE voted Nulab in so we take the blame. Basically they were prudent from 1997 and did most of the overspending from 2003 onwards.

Also I believe that the average credit card debt peaked in 2008 at just over £9000.00, although evidently it is now reducing. People with that sort of debt helped contribute to the problem by spending money they had not yet earned.

I have never had a pennies debt in my life (excluding the mortgage) but I have to share responsibility. I owned 4 houses until a couple of years ago (Buy To Let) and that helped fire the housing boom which fed the credit boom. Therefore I am as guilty as the next man.

It is now re adjustment time and we just have to take it on the chin with some dignity instead of bawling like some noisy brat who has had his cream bun taken from him.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mike-B:
Labour was in charge

No. The Labour government was never in charge as it entrusted it that to the capitalists, bankers and the same ruling class who have run this country since time immemorial.

Chaps

Some of you are coming across a a bit left wing.

Mick

Thanks Mick very nice of you to say so.

I don't think there are any fascists on the forum which I have to say is a refreshing observation.