Have Naim Got I.T. Wrong?

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Me, I like coming home from a hard day wrestling with stupid computers and just turn on some music!

This point has been made by a number of forum members, including myself, and I think it is a very valid one.

I agree here. I like coming home and just turning the music on.

However, it seems that we have 2 of the best UK music manufacturers taking different routes to HDD based music. It seems a shame as there are people technically who agree with one or other of the paths, yet musically you must choose between 2 completely different sounds.

Now, what it needs and is the simplist is for Naim to bring out a box with no HDD in it. Then they cater to both the options, with the brilliant Naim sound.

Roy.

The pace at which technology changes and drives costs down would have me very wary in investing in any expensive dedicated streaming/ripping hardware tbh.

Without going full circle and opening previous debates, I have an iMac and an Aiport Express feeding into a Meridian DAC.

I get home, I hit Play in iTunes and music comes out - it doesn't have to be any more difficult than that and it needn't cost thousands of pounds IMO.

I think the problem isn't with the technology, but with how Naim as a company views its relationship with its dealers and some of its customers. Naim is forever going on about how a dealer is supposed to set up all your equipment for you, sort of a "blackbox" approach to hi-fi. This is a relationship I have to imagine in the age of declining margins and more competitive hi-fi, dealers are unwilling to give up.

So, Naim, to be true to this moto/creed/directive...whatever, had to produce a box that a dealer could install with minimal fuss and wouldn't tax the dealer in learnings all about networking, etc. Rather, the dealer can just plug it in like all other sources, give you a quick demo and be on his way, "There you gov, welcome to the 21 century"..

All of Linn's product require a little more technical knowledge, at the very least, to set up/connect a NAS and well as use Linn's TERRIBLE user interface.

Just my 0.02 cents

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Hutchings:
The pace at which technology changes and drives costs down would have me very wary in investing in any expensive dedicated streaming/ripping hardware tbh.

Without going full circle and opening previous debates, I have an iMac and an Aiport Express feeding into a Meridian DAC.

I get home, I hit Play in iTunes and music comes out - it doesn't have to be any more difficult than that and it needn't cost thousands of pounds IMO.

Should be a very satisfactory solution. I doesn't always have to be at the 555 level.

Contrary to abbydog and others, I don't mind at all computering when I get home. I have to work on a PC during the day. Doing stuff with my Macbook after work is a relief, a pleasure and fun.

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Contrary to abbydog...

Apart, of course, from chatting away on this forum using a wireless laptop...

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Hutchings:
I get home, I hit Play in iTunes and music comes out

Or - get home - turn on computer, wait for it to boot up, open iTunes, select track or playlist, press play. Spot some e-mails that have just come in. Follow link to You Tube amusing video from friend, check bank account, reply to e-mails, wonder what I was listening to.
Think about having supper.

Leave computer on and continue to play or turn off computer - have supper. Turn computer back on to play .....

quote:

Me, I like coming home from a hard day wrestling with stupid computers and just turn on some music!

Why go on about a HD solution on the Forum then?

Stick to your CD player/turntable.

It's ok if you want to.

Really.

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Or - get home - turn on computer, wait for it to boot up, open iTunes, select track or playlist, press play. Spot some e-mails that have just come in. Follow link to You Tube amusing video from friend, check bank account, reply to e-mails, wonder what I was listening to.
Think about having supper.

Leave computer on and continue to play or turn off computer - have supper. Turn computer back on to play .....

Didn't you forget the 2 hour walk home from the coal pit, and the trudge out to the well to get water.

I agree with you Adam, you can set up your computer/laptop in the most cumbersome way imaginable. For most, with a computer on standby, it should be a one button hit. I press power on my sb3 remote and I'm browsing my music within 5 seconds. No computer power up. No e-mail and internet distractions, if I choose.

If computer power consumption is an issue, use an outdated PowerBook as your server which will bring your power usage on standby to virtually nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:
Why go on about a HD solution on the Forum then?

Hi Joe,


Believe me Joe I am not negative about the new technologies. I thought the progress made by SACD and DVDA where great, they made something that sounded pretty good and LOT faster than CD managed, one of the reasons I bought a DVD5. I am archiving my more aged LPs to 9624.

I do digital recording and mastering, in a minor way, and so want there to be a solution that enables me to listen to this easily at full resolution - so my biase is probably towards the Naim solution, although that is still only 9624.

My main point was the dichotomy of approaches by Linn and Naim.

There have been comments to the effect, 'Why buy Linn/Naim rather than a cheap NAS and a SB3 et al?'.

I think that those of us who have bought high quality audio over the years would say - for the same reason we don't buy Panasonic, for instance, for main music listening - its OK but not great!

But as you move towards more technical solutions (Linn & NAS) you may disenfranchise the HiFi buffs. If you simplify the solution by removing the NAS (Naim) you may end up with a solution that more quickly becomes redundant. As HDD/storage technology makes step changes they generally update the interface that is used to connect it, that includes USB as well as SATA for instance. This may make simply swapping out HDD difficult.

Frankly I want Naim to do this well and successfully. I do wonder whether they got a good/any ROI on the nVi and DVD5. I would hate to see them burned on this.

Perhaps one way of 'future proofing' their solution would be to separate out the storage of the HDX, allowing this to be flexibly upgraded, in much the same way as the Naim PSUs ...

M

PS But I AM enjoying my CDs & LPs more than ever!

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Perhaps one way of 'future proofing' their solution would be to separate out the storage of the HDX, allowing this to be flexibly upgraded, in much the same way as the Naim PSUs ...

That makes the most sense. The two appraoches must converge (very quickly I suspect) and that's the way to do it.

Then there will be debates about whether the Naim storage sounds better than the computer storage but it will really be about who prefers computers and who prefers a bespoke solution.

It will also allow very sensible upgrade paths both for storage and the bit that really matters.

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Originally posted by Warren:

quote:

Perhaps one way of 'future proofing' their solution would be to separate out the storage of the HDX, allowing this to be flexibly upgraded, in much the same way as the Naim PSUs ...

That makes the most sense.

Have you investigated whether the physical proximity of the storage and player are an important factor?

Just a thought, Ears

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Originally posted by Ears:

quote:

Originally posted by Warren:

quote:

Perhaps one way of 'future proofing' their solution would be to separate out the storage of the HDX, allowing this to be flexibly upgraded, in much the same way as the Naim PSUs ...

That makes the most sense.

Have you investigated whether the physical proximity of the storage and player are an important factor?

Just a thought, Ears

I'm sure the debate will rage but it will take a lot od listening to persuade me that '1' and '0's can't be move a few feet perfectly.

Plus if its still hard disks there has to be merit in moving the noisy hot beasts away from the analog signal.

Isn't the NS Ref a separate hard disk solution?

What if Naim offered their ripping/management software as a stand alone download? Then you have the music with a high quality rip in your NAS, which is what I prefer. The next step is getting that file to an audiophile high quality stream to your system which will needs to be buffered, cleaned, upconverted for best playback. The question is ethernet to your DAC(Linn Sneaky DS) or PC/Mac (or NAS-->PC-->DAC) to your converter/DAC. Either one or two boxes and that debate remains to be seen. Bel Canto now offering attachment to DAC 3 to upconvert to 24/96. Throw in a good user interface like Sonos and your good to go. It actually can be very easy as long as the ripping interfaces and Music Management are well designed. If done through hand held internet tablet very enjoyable to use. Currently I use Sonos with their Handcontroller 100. I pick it up press Zone I want that my Naim system is attached to, choose music and it's playing. The only issue is quality.

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Originally posted by gary1:
What if Naim offered their ripping/management software as a stand alone download? Then you have the music with a high quality rip in your NAS...

i doubt it because the ripping solution is a combination of software and hardware.

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There have been comments to the effect, 'Why buy Linn/Naim rather than a cheap NAS and a SB3 et al?'.

But the hifi market is infested with people who can't tell the difference between a cheap CD player and a Naim, or refuse to believe that CD players even sound different - it all being ones and zeros.

So these comments about SB3s and NAS drives, I'll take with a grain of salt, cause to me it's clearly a case of history repeating itself. Again.

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But the hifi market is infested with people who can't tell the difference between a cheap CD player and a Naim, or refuse to believe that CD players even sound different - it all being ones and zeros.

I can make out the difference between my streamed music and my cdx2/xps2. This difference is so slight that I don't lose sleep trying to determine which is better.

I don't think Naim have got I.T. wrong, but I do think they are going to miss out on a large slice of the market.

I would like to buy a Naim DAC. At the moment I am using a Beresford DAC with my Mac Pro>Airport Express>Naim equipment.

When I play Apple Lossless files with i-Tunes they are great. The sound/jitter though could be improved, which is where a Naim DAC would come in.

If I invest in a Logitech Duet and NAS set-up, I would still like to run it through a Naim DAC.

I am one of those people who doesn't want to buy an HDX or NS01, but I would like to invest in Naim rather than spend a whole lot of money on a Benchmark DAC 1 or Lavry etc.

It is that frustrating I have even been thinking about a Linn Sneaky DS.

None of this will stop me playing CDs on my Naim CD player though.

Jack

Jack

This is a serious question (as a Beresford owner)...what does jitter sound like?

Regards

Jim

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Originally posted by Jack Barron:

I would like to buy a Naim DAC.

It is that frustrating I have even been thinking about a Linn Sneaky DS.

None of this will stop me playing CDs on my Naim CD player though.

Jack

Yes-Yes-and Yes

Gregg

quote:

but it will take a lot od listening to persuade me that '1' and '0's can't be move a few feet perfectly.

Have a listen to a CD player transport and DAC combination, then a Naim CD player with offboard power supply.

If you can't hear which is dramatically better, then the debate will indeed rage.

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what does jitter sound like?

L-l-l-l-l-like this, b-b-b-brother....

Oops - that's jive, not jitter.

I agree with Gregg and Jack above.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Hutchings:
I get home, I hit Play in iTunes and music comes out

Or - get home - turn on computer, wait for it to boot up, open iTunes, select track or playlist, press play. Spot some e-mails that have just come in. Follow link to You Tube amusing video from friend, check bank account, reply to e-mails, wonder what I was listening to.
Think about having supper.

Leave computer on and continue to play or turn off computer - have supper. Turn computer back on to play .....

I also agree with Adam. I have a Sonos system at home and for the very reasons Adam suggests, it is a bit of a pain in the a**. Its other significant failing is that it can't play Apple store downloads (yes, I know the sound quality is shite but I have purchased from iTunes a lot of material that is not readily available on CD, or singles that I would not buy the whole album to obtain).

The HDX sounds cool. But, especially with downloads, convenience is king. I am not really keen to buy the HDX and rip all the same CDs it has taken me the last two years to load up on my computer using iTunes (then continue to rip new purchases onto both HDX and computer).

So far, the one that has peaked my interest the most is the Wadia iTransport. It retrieves the goods digitally from an iPod; feed to a high quality DAC, and you should have sound quality that approaches CD (and is significantly better than SB, Sonos, Airport Express etc). And they are relatively cheap. One is on order.

Now all I need is a good stand-alone DAC...

Obsessed1, I have to politely disagree IMHO. Maybe because I have a NAS which is always on, I don't have the same issues with rebooting the computer. Music is on my system within a minute of walking in my home. Furthermore, I also have an ipod and Sonos and maybe because I hadn't purchased much music from itunes it doesn't bother me since through my Rhapsody subscription I have access to so much more at a fixed price which I find cheaper by far than purchasing from itunes. Sonos/SB also benefits those who want multizone control. In my home Sonos x3 which can be linked/unlinked/played separately and can also be hooked up to a home automation switch/amp and distributed to whole home audio (put 2 sonos boxes on and you can have even more control). So I think that it comes down to one's individual application needs that really makes the difference. Quality a separate issue!!

Joe90

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L-l-l-l-l-like this, b-b-b-brother....

Thanks for the explanation. Given that after five months of listening to a wide range of music through an Airport Express/Beresford DAC that my hearing must be really bad as I have never heard this j-j-j-j-j-itter effect....

Can I now safely conclude that I can sell all my Naim gear as I am clearly deaf and it is wasted on me?

Cheers

Jim