Have Naim Got I.T. Wrong?

quote:

The HDX sounds cool. But, especially with downloads, convenience is king. I am not really keen to buy the HDX and rip all the same CDs it has taken me the last two years to load up on my computer using iTunes (then continue to rip new purchases onto both HDX and computer).

So far, the one that has peaked my interest the most is the Wadia iTransport. It retrieves the goods digitally from an iPod; feed to a high quality DAC, and you should have sound quality that approaches CD (and is significantly better than SB, Sonos, Airport Express etc). And they are relatively cheap. One is on order.

Obsessed one:

1) If you have loaded playable (non-DRM) files onto an iPod (that is disk mode enabled), they are playable digital direct by plugging into the USB socket on the HDX front panel.

2) You could also copy non-DRM files onto a cheap and cheerful USB flash drive and plug that into the front of HDX.

3) You could plug the HDX into an ethernet hub and read any playable files located on the network, including the CD's you've ripped already onto your computer (presumably lossless AAC perhaps?)

4) If you were to play discs on an HDX (in CD playing mode) for a period of time, it would be an ideal opportunity to rip them as well. Seems like a reasonably painless way to transition ...

5) I would also consider what capability your current set up or planned one has to play hi-res downloads or rips, as they become more plentiful? (since the HDX is capable of rendering those too). The HDX incorporates a very high quality DAC, that does not then require an SPDIF compromise or
expensive high speed digital interconnect etc. etc.

The HDX is perhaps SO versatile, that it's difficult to digest all of it's technical capabilities quickly, and without actual hands on experience and audition. So perhaps you'll need to hear one before you really understand what makes it so compelling, and useful (including the longer term). All this is overall comparison with other ways of cracking the digital nut(s).

BTW One thing we have noticed (when considering cheaper alternatives), is the incredible lack of consistency with the sonic results obtained by using mass produced hardware... (things haven't changed much!) Do check where any item is built, no-matter what brand name it is.

The HDX is obviously a very high quality product, that (like all Naim products) people can count on being manufactured with individual care and attention... and backed up with industry leading customer service.
I would be careful of apples and oranges comparisons...

All very good points, Chris. I'm not at all suggesting the Wadia would be comparable with HDX or perhaps even any CD player in the Naim range. I'm just looking for an easy and convenient way to wed iTunes (including some DRM download) with hi-fi, to the extent that is even possible.

As for versatility, the HDX is impressive, and perhaps its biggest draw for me may be its sound quality playing CDs and upgradeability. That alone may make an audition worthwhile to complete my (mostly) Naim system!

Went out for a pint with a mate of mine last night.

He runs the IT for a really large foodstuffs cooperative.

Real 'mission critical' stuff apparently. In English that means: 'server must never break down - 24/7!'

So I reckon he knows some stuff about networks, as his responsibilities are vast.

I asked him whether he thought the HDX/NS (he loves his music also) series of players was badly designed having 'only' 400GB of HD space.

His comment was very interesting.

He said that their system utilised rows and rows of 500GB NAS drives, because of the speed of the drives compared to larger devices.

He guessed that the drives in the Naim servers could even be spinning at 15000 rpm - meaning they were up to roughly 4 x faster than a 1TB model. His system doesn't use 'big' drives becuase they're 'just not quick enough'. Their system apparently uses drives that spin at 7200 rpm, as 5400 isn't fast enough. And they're also looking at the new super-fast models.

He stated categorically that speed of info retrieval was much more important than storage space, as their system was infinitely scalable by serialisation, and drives were cheap as chips, so why worry?

Now before you bollock me - and I am NOT a tech - I just wanted to point this out because it appears that my suspicions of not all being what it seems with IT may indeed have some foundation...

For sure the quality of the drive can have an effect; the buffer size will influence speed, and the quietness will be a factor in a living room setup.
I strongly suspect that the drives will not be 15k rpm, because I've never seen a SATA drive at that speed.

FYI, I work with multi-terabyte arrays that have several levels of redundancy (including replication to another site); it's a far step from buying a terabyte USB drive at PC World!
We also have a mid-range Sun box that can take 48 1TB drives (but I can't think of an application for it other than to store a load f MP3s.

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:

quote:

but it will take a lot od listening to persuade me that '1' and '0's can't be move a few feet perfectly.

Have a listen to a CD player transport and DAC combination, then a Naim CD player with offboard power supply.

If you can't hear which is dramatically better, then the debate will indeed rage.

I can do better than that, I can flick between a CDS3 and a MAC streaming lossless files to a DAC.

There is a difference, hardly "dramatic" and nowhere near the difference in cost. When we talk about the market possibilities, it only includes a few anal retentives like us I'm afraid.

When you sit and compare the two, it is amazing the gap is not much bigger given the cost. Most civilians would be gobsmacked that anyone would pay so much for such small gain. They might question whether it had become more about the Hi Fi kit than the music.

We are such an insignificant part of the market, but fortunately still well catered for in everything except the mastering of the music - doh!

Steve

Steve,

For most consumers compressed files are all they need, that's why so many are more than happy playing MP3s and AACs.

Arguably it was the random access capability, ease of use, durability and lacks of pops that won them over from cassettes and vinyl to CDs.

Then the trade-off between CD quality and the convenience of computer based music was made without hesitation in favor of the latter.

Even DJs (oh horror) have gone from vinyl to MP3s using FinalScratch software.

So...I guess I'm saying you're right!

Chris - not sure if this has been asked already, but can I dump my vinyl collection directly to the HDX ?

Paul

There are a couple of firms who specialize in commercial vinyl-to-tagged file transfer, which would be a more sensible option than preparing hundreds of topped-and-tailed files yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by prowla:
For sure the quality of the drive can have an effect; the buffer size will influence speed, and the quietness will be a factor in a living room setup.
I strongly suspect that the drives will not be 15k rpm, because I've never seen a SATA drive at that speed.

I concur, I say there is little chance these drives are running at 15krpm. Have you ever heard a 10/15k HD, not the quietest operation. Also, I am not sure I understand why access times need to be so great, this isn't high def video. I can only imagine what his power bills are to have such a large array of 400GB drives running at such high RPM.

I am going to go out on a limb here and bet that the drives in this unit are one of these two...

Seagate
Western Digital


Your buddy needs lightning fast access speeds as I am sure his inventory management cannot afford to have any lag in it. Having done a fair amount on Wal-Mart over the years, their IT demands are likely some of the greatest. Early on, system latency was a huge issue for them.

Good find, Cjones!

btw, Hifi-Choice has an article on the new Arcam music server, it also has two 400GB drives.

how has this thread not been deleted by the powers that be?

I don't think we are allowed to talk of these things in this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:
Went out for a pint with a mate of mine last night.

He runs the IT for a really large foodstuffs cooperative.

Real 'mission critical' stuff apparently. In English that means: 'server must never break down - 24/7!'

So I reckon he knows some stuff about networks, as his responsibilities are vast.

I asked him whether he thought the HDX/NS (he loves his music also) series of players was badly designed having 'only' 400GB of HD space.

His comment was very interesting.

He said that their system utilised rows and rows of 500GB NAS drives, because of the speed of the drives compared to larger devices.

He guessed that the drives in the Naim servers could even be spinning at 15000 rpm - meaning they were up to roughly 4 x faster than a 1TB model. His system doesn't use 'big' drives becuase they're 'just not quick enough'. Their system apparently uses drives that spin at 7200 rpm, as 5400 isn't fast enough. And they're also looking at the new super-fast models.

He stated categorically that speed of info retrieval was much more important than storage space, as their system was infinitely scalable by serialisation, and drives were cheap as chips, so why worry?

Now before you bollock me - and I am NOT a tech - I just wanted to point this out because it appears that my suspicions of not all being what it seems with IT may indeed have some foundation...

Just to back this up, HP's largest disk drive, is the XP24000 Disk Array.
It can hold up to 1152 individual disk drives. This sucker has a maximum cache of 512GB, and up to 224 Fibre Channel ports.

It IS all about speed of retrieval AND DATA SECURITY.

Ultimately, the speed is provided by the size of the cache and the firmware driving the disk controllers.

Security is provided by super fancy RAID algorithms and hot-swappable everything. I believe that your XP array can be configured to carry on with up tp 3 drives failing within each disk group at any one time. This can be improved by having the ability to automatically swap in spare "Hot Standby" disks to ensure access speed is retained.


In comparison, any PC or home related NAS drives are toys in comparison. It is how they are managed and configured that really counts.
IMHO, Naim's decision to use the second disk as a standby backup disk is very clever to maximise the life span of the disk.

Cheers
Pete
(...@hp.com)

quote:

It can hold up to 1152 individual disk drives. This sucker has a maximum cache of 512GB, and up to 224 Fibre Channel ports.

So quite large then!

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
how has this thread not been deleted by the powers that be?

I don't think we are allowed to talk of these things in this forum.

What happened to the "DVD5 playing FLAC files thread"?

Was that censored off the forum?

If so, why?

Peter,

My guess is that my question was answered (no), and they didnt think the discussion was appropriate?

Some dont see these discussions as valuable. I do, as I am sure others do, think they are very important. Especially when we are trying to find a suitable Naim audio solution.

If the DVD5 played FLACs I'd stop using my PC as a source, and I would buy it tomorrow. Also id stop looking for any external DAC.

So i thought it was a legitimate question.

It seems discussion of Non-competing products, for which Naim has no option, are allowed and even fostered in this forum, i.e. Turnatables, and oddly speakers (which Naim does have, and nice ones at that).

But any discussion of using a Naim kit on the end of an External DAC is heresy!!!

i am totally confused...

There are reviews upon reviews for NON-Naim Loud speakers here, for example. I have had my posts deleted for talking about DACs to use with my Naim kit.

I haven't seen any LP12 threads deleted or asked to be moved to the mfg's website.

We all have some degree of a Naim kit, or we wouldn't be here. We all desire to travel the golden road of upgrades. I am buying an CDX tomorrow (or as soon as the person gets back to me). I am going to get a NAPSC and an HC as soon as i have some spare cash... next month I might even get a FC for fun b/c I can have it in a 3 hour drive.

But the external DAC need will always be there b/c I will always have the need for 24/96 FLAC playback, as well as the immense collection I have lovingly collected over 20 years... (I am not allowed to keep 2000+ cds in the living room

quote:

Originally posted by PeterZ:
What happened to the "DVD5 playing FLAC files thread"?
Was that censored off the forum?
If so, why?

No - it's behind you.
http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/48019385/m/4572924417

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
I have had my posts deleted for talking about DACs to use with my Naim kit.

No - your post was deleted because it went on, at great length, about modifications available for a product - with details as to prices.

Sort of modification and Rep.

ooops. sorry about that Adam,

I honestly did not know that was a no-no. I thought i had seen people discussing pricing for TTs, speakers, racks etc...

I am not trying to be pejorative in the least.

And also, the thread was in fact deleted for some time. Although it has since been restored.... with a new title.