Kans got beaten by Mission 760SE's !?!

On the other hand Alison K's song title says it all really.

Craig

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Say it isn't so Alco

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Hi Graig,
I'm sorry, bit it's the bitter truth.
As soon as the Mission took over, introducing Alison and Nils in my living room, we sat on the couch, holding our breath (not too long ) and picking up our jaw.
It seems quite unbelievable that two budget-kings of the early 90's could trounce some original Kan's (or even compete with 'em!)
(must be the modifications )

I can't help it, and I wish it wasn't so, but I believe my ears.

But I won't sell the Kan's untill I have found something that gets me just as enthousiastic as these Mission's (or those Totem Mite's).
So, it may take a while

regards,
Alco

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Are you sure that the Kans tweeters are performing optimally?

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Hi Mark,
I guess the tweeters will be fine, but I'm not 100% sure. They are about 17 years old I guess.
(and they have been pushed in, when I bought 'em!)

But,... I don't think I can try the new Linn tweeters first, so I'd have to know for sure if this will make a big improvement.
Also, I guess the setup for my Kan's is not that great, with the fireplace in between 'em. So, that way speakers that have to stand further from the wall, already do have some benefits.

regards,
Alco

I own two pairs of Kans, a pair of Isobariks and a pair of 760SE's. I've tried the 760's in a number of systems and they sound best with a cheap Yamaha DVD player and a nait1. In my main system they are hopeless. There is no aspect of their performance that is even remotely better than Kans. The fact that they are pretty unrevealing meand that they work quite well with midi systems etc but that is the extent of their abilities.

With a CDX/nait 2 Kans should be clearly better, if they're not, something is not set up properly.

Alco - If you ever get over to the uk I would love the chance to show you what Kans actually sound like. I think you will be very surprised.

Regards
Steve

[This message was edited by kan man on THURSDAY 19 December 2002 at 13:15.]

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With a CDX/nait 2 Kans should be clearly better, if they're not, something is not set up properly.

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I expected this answer... :unsure:
I did everything I could to set up the Kan's properly. I have 'em on Kan-II stands, rocksteady, as close to the backwall as possible, but still....
Note that the Mission 760's have been modified,so I guess this simple mod must 've raised the 760 to a much higher level, otherwise I can't explain the fact that in my room, with my system, the Missions totally destroy the Kan's.

I also thought about the fact that the Missions are way much easier to drive,for my Nait, and they stood in front of the fireplace where as the Kan's are on both sides of it.

So,...what more could I do to optimise the Kan's setup ?

regards,
Alco

Hi Alco,
I was just wondering what did you do to the Missions? I have a pair of (old) 780's and a Nait2 kind of lined up as a 2nd system. I agree that the Nait drives them easily but the base control and High Frequencies don't soar as well as I think they could, so I may tweek them.

Simon

The chimney breast is definitely not helping. I have my room the 'wrong' way round so that I sit with my back to the fireplace and the Kans have a clear wall. If you can't get them working properly then maybe you should give up on them.

In my first post I came across as defending Kans. I'll moderate that and say that I actually quite like the 760's. I use them for TV and garden duties and they sound prety good. They just don't get much better sounding on the end of a sorted LP12/52/250. Kans on the other hand just get better and better with source/amp improvements.

To be honest, I've never been convinced about using them with CD. I've heard mine with CDS2/552/500 and this was greatly inferior to LP12/52/250. If I ever go for a proper digital source I doubt I'll be using Kans with it.


Regards
Steve

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Hi Alco,
I was just wondering what did you do to the Missions?

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Those Mission's weren't mine. They belong to a friend, who already picked 'em up again. He rewired the speaker on the inside, and some cross-over parts got replaced by better ones.

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If the Missions were brilliant just get them and ditch the Kans

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Hi Omer,
It's not that easy... The Mission 760SE no longer excist (for about 10 years) and rarely show up on the s/h market.

O well, I'll take my time and see what the future will bring.

regards,
Alco

Hi,
Nobody seems to have picked up on the fact that Alco's Kans had the tweeters "pushed in" when he got them. Unless I'm mistaken this is not likely to add a whole lot of pleasure to listening to Kans. I also have reservations about the difficulty of driving Kans in relation to the amp available. I've been told a couple of times that even a '180 is "pushing it a bit" on Kans which much prefer a diet of '250's. Though I didn't like them 250 bi-amped as much as a single 160. So make of that what you will.

Nime

Everyone has the right to be wrong. (ocasionaly)

The MIssion's are a very good pair of small speaker's. MY brother in law has a pair on the end of his Technics system and they sound wonderful.

The mission's are one of the best small speakers arround and are under rated by many people. I am therefore not surprised they sounded better than your Linn Kans especially when they are seventeen years old.

I would suggest that you either get the Kan's up dated or purchase a pair of missions.

If you thought the 760'SE's were good try and listen to a pair of 780's their even better.

Regards

NB

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I would suggest that you either get the Kan's up dated or purchase a pair of missions.

If you thought the 760'SE's were good try and listen to a pair of 780's their even better.

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Hi NB,
Thanx for the tips, but updating the Kan's is no option for me, and like I said, purchasing some Mission 760SE's or 780 neither, since they're not available/made anymore!
(for the last ten years, or so)
They hardly ever show up on the s/h market, so I guess I'll have to search for something else.

I was thinking of Klipsch, like the RB3.

They are quite small, are VERY easy to drive (94db) and affordable.
I've heard them once on the end of a Audio-Analoque 'Puccini SE' and a AA 'Paganini' CD-player, and that sounded wonderful.

Only thing is... There's not any Klipsch dealer in my area
There is one, but they don't have the RB3, so I'd have to order it blindly and I can't demo it at home first. So, I guess that's not such a good idea...

o well. I'll find a solution
...sooner or later

regards,
Alco

[This message was edited by Alco on SATURDAY 21 December 2002 at 10:48.]

Alco;

The Kans were designed to be the most musically revealing loudspeaker Linn could make in a small box positioned against the wall. They cost what they cost. Having heard Kans with 250s, I would say that they are incredibly successful.

The Missions, on the other hand, were designed to compete in a crowded marketplace of "bookshelf" speakers, and were designed down to a price. The intention was surely to build a speaker which would generate sales when auditioned along with 5 other boxes of the same size and price. They are therefore voiced to make you go "wow", and instantly hand over cash. Once they are at home, there is typically nothing to compare them with until the next upgrade comes along. Good though I am sure they are, I suspect that they may not have the integrity of the Kans, and easier to get sounding impressive as they are less transparent to the rest of the sistem.

The logical (though probably impossible) course would be to remove the Kans from the room, set up the Missions optimally and live with them for a couple of weeks without listening too hard. Then take them out, and put the Kans back.

I reckon you'd end up wanting the Kans, and upgrading the rest to keep up with them!

Best;

Mark

PS: just seen your post above: Why can't you update the Kans? At least they hold their value. Surely getting those Klipshs would be like selling an old Mercedes to buy a Ford Ka? And, if they sound OK with that AA stuff, they'll take the paint off the walls with a decent amp like the Nait...

I have to admit that I have never heard the Klipsch so I cannot comment on them.

I suppose that it all depends on price and availability in Holland I know that Richer sounds here in England sell older Mission speakers at reasonable prices, but if there not available in Holland then its time to look elsewhere.

I am using a pair of Ruark speakers with my Naim gear. I have to admit that Ruark manufacture some of the best sounding speakers around but its all a matter of personal choice.

Keep on looking there is something out there for you.

Regards

NB

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Why can't you update the Kans?

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well,...ok,...perhaps I could, but I'd rather not, because I'd would have to be sure if that is THE solution for my problem. (which I doubt!) otherwise it would be a waste of time/money.

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The Kans were designed to be the most musically revealing loudspeaker Linn could make in a small box positioned against the wall.
The Missions, on the other hand, were designed to compete in a crowded marketplace of "bookshelf" speakers, and were designed down to a price.

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I fully agree with you Mark,
The Kan's sure are revealing, and the cheap Mission's were, more or less, designed for musiclovers on a small budget buying their first pair of speakers or to upgrade the free give-away speakers that went with most midi- minisets.
(mind that the Mission 760SE's I've heard were modified!!!)
Considering the above mentioned facts, it's even more surprising and hard to believe/swallow that the Mission's were more open,detailed,revealing(!), and simply more pleasing.
Ok, perhaps if I had something like a 72/Hi/250, I'd prefer the Kans again, ...but I don't have something like a 72/Hi/250,so...

I still think the fireplace in between the Kans isn't doing any justice to the Kan's.
I'm sure when I had a flat, solid wall all for my Kan's and perhaps an LP12, I'd love my Kan's, but that's not the case.

best regards,
Alco

Alco,
What you need is a separate electrical spur for your hi-fi. With as simple a sistem as you have, it will be improved 5-fold.

If you buy new tweeters, buy new speakers, trade-in your Kans, get an LP-12 etc.: all those sidegrades/upgrades will be less cost-effective than running a separate wire and breaker. I often hear from apartment dwellers that they don't want to do a separate spur because when they move it would be a waste. But you have lost far more than that in past purchases and your hi-fi isn't much farther ahead sonically!

In my work, I do a lot of AV and hi-fi installations for people in apartments, which includes separate spurs. With few exceptions, all are hidden from landlords and can be patched when moving so as to not lose a security deposit.

And with the importance you pay to aesthetics, a separate electrical circuit makes the most sense: you won't see it!!!

Replacing your Kans are a sidegrade; end of story! You are sceptical of replacing the tweeters (understandable). But it is a fact that upgrading your hi-fi mains is just that: an UPGRADE. In addition to better music (prat, tune, etc.), Kans get deeper bass and clearer treble when the amps and CDP are unstrangled. To rephrase; Your Kans are showing up the harshness from what your Nait and CDX are getting from the mains, the Missions are covering that up.

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak

Hi Ron,

Thanx for the advice. I heard many good things about a seperate spur for a HiFi-setup. As a 'source-first' kinda guy, I can imagine that it really would make a difference. Only fact is...:
1. I bought my appartment. Does that make any difference when installing a seperate spur ?
2. How big,complex and expensive would such an operation be ?
3. I'm also having plans to move to another house/part of town. (hopefully within 2003)

regards,
Alco

Alco,
Sorry about any translation errors. I get confused when reading about "apartments" on international forums. I assumed you are in what is a British "flat" or American "apartment". Am I correct?

Often, apartment dwellers think a separate spur is a mistake. I install them mainly for safety reasons; when an AV sistem with DVD, VCR, Satelite, TV, pre-amp, amps, surround, etc. is used, it can easily overload many apartment circuits as they share them with lighting and appliances. I usually convince most people on safety (especially if they've popped circuit-breakers in the past) but many are leary about sonic advantages.

As a matter of fact, last night I installed in a house a separate spur to a simple AV sistem; all-in-one surround receiver, DVD, VCR, and TV powering five-channel in-wall speakers. The husband immediately noticed the sonic improvement in what you and I would kindly call a "modest" sistem. The electrical circuit panel for this install just happened to be right under the AV room in the basement; I used about 12 feet of wire!

In your case get a quote. The materials for you would probably be just wire, a plug, and a breaker; less than $25. (I'll let you do the conversion). Labor is the main cost, and depends on how complicated the routing is. Sometimes a second breaker panel is necessary if all yours are filled, though I've found unused circuits ie. a former dishwasher or garbage disposal can be used for the hi-fi. Even though you could post a photo of your breaker (or fuse) box, I'd definitely get a pro to look at it. BTW, when choosing an electrician, tell him you've blown breakers in the past or are considering a large AV sistem and want a separate run just for that. Most electricians don't get the "flat-earth" thing.

Even if you spend $100, this learning experience will reward you handsomely with enjoyment for several months and give you the knowledge and understanding for future installs.

Ron The Mon,
Needle-Freak

I had the RB-3 on extended home dem a while back and I'll tell you I enjoyed them. They made good bass and had good quickness and that horn tweeter was surprisingly UN-horny-- very sweet and natural. But I thought they were not as coherent as they could be up and down the range. This was evident only in comparison with the JM Reynaud Twin mk. 2 speakers that superceded them. The Reynaud was more "one full-range driver" sounding, and a better speaker overall, but it was more expensive and I dont know if it boogied all that well. It certainly sounded pretty though.

He knows his stuff and I don't think he's ever dished out poor advice as far as I can tell.

Also, please try the Kans on a flat wall even if it means rearranging your apartment a little.

Regards
Steve

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Also, please try the Kans on a flat wall even if it means rearranging your apartment a little.

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Hi Steve,
I did that once. It did make a difference, but it wasn't worth it imho,also because that way the Kan's were standing too close to each other and the left Kan couldn't stand as close to the wall as the other. Another thing was, that the laminate floor on that side of the room was very wobbly (hope it's the right word) so he Kan's didn't have a rocksolid/even floor.
(not to mention the fact that I didn't have space enough left for my big couch)

Maybe It's just better to wait, till I've found me another appartment (flat ).
(ouch, I hope I can't wait that long )

regards,
Alco

[This message was edited by Alco on SATURDAY 21 December 2002 at 21:13.]

[This message was edited by Alco on SATURDAY 21 December 2002 at 21:16.]

Hi Alco,

What you need is a flat apartment.

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What you need is a flat apartment.

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Hi Robbie,
Yeah, or even better, a Flat-Earth appartment

btw: the laminate floor is kinda wobbly at some places in my room, because the 'old' carpet is still lying underneath it. (instead of the concreet floor)

greetings,
Alco

Alco

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btw: the laminate floor is kinda wobbly at some places in my room, because the 'old' carpet is still lying underneath it. (instead of the concreet floor)

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Why did you lay laminate down on top of carpet? Surely that's a recipe for disaster?

Jay

Yabba, dabba, doooooo

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Why did you lay laminate down on top of carpet? Surely that's a recipe for disaster?

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I didn't lay the laminate floor myself.(my dad did) I got advised to lay it over the existing (glued to the concrete floor) carpet. The (hardly)'old' carpet was already kinda flat so I was told that it would be no problem and also it would save a lot of time and trouble. Also my neighbours living underneath me, would probably thank me for it.

With heavy,sandfilled stands (with marble slab underneath) it's no problem on the laminate floor, but the Kan stands seem a little too light.

regards,
Alco

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You can go on pursue "Why Kans don't work here", or you can say f*** it.

10000s of these Missions were sold, surely someone thinks he needs something bigger/newer

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That's right Omer.
Just a couple o' days before I auditioned those Mission 760SE's I saw them on a HiFi-dealer's website for... only 89,- euro/56,- UKP
a pair!
They were sold within a few days...

You're right, it's no use persueing 'why Kan's don't work in my room'. For now, they'll do, but in the end they'll have to go.
I will just audition and wait patiently the next few weeks(months )

Thanx for all the advice guys! I'm sure some tips would be useful, but I decided to wait and see.
(won't sell 'em though, untill I've found a better replacement.)