AAaaaaaarrrrggh!

My cover is standard household contents, up to £30,000 coverage for any claim. My LP12/Lingo/Aro/Asaka was built up secondhand over a period of three and a bit years, and cost around £1700 all-in (£700 for LP12/Akito/Cirkus/Valhalla/new K9 -> £350 for a s/h Lingo -> £100 for an Asaka -> £480 for an Aro.

The actual replacement cost on my policy was open-ended - a new for old, minimal fuss, loss adjuster investigated but didn't even want to see the turntable, wall shelf or anything - simply wanted to go through what I was claiming for - and the dealer provided a quote for replacement - £3800 to replace all damaged bits. Lop off the excess and the insurance-discount (I didn't know about this bit) and I end up with around £3600 to spend. All that for an annual sum of £100 for contents cover - that's for a two bedroom townhouse within five minutes walk of Edinburgh city centre (building cover is extra - around £120 per year)

I am one of the lucky ones - compliant insurance company, adequate cover, etc. - but I would recommend anyone without such cover to get it...

John

PS. I may end up buying the all new P9, such as it is (released real soon now) - I quite fancy a change...

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Obviously I side with PD on this one.

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I found Paul Darwin’s response intensely rude and patronising. If he speaks for his dealers then I want little to do with them.

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A relationship with a dealer would allow him to advise you on the best course of action based on his knowledge of your system and your priorities.

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Typical scenario for the vinyl user:

[walk into dealer]

[customer]”Do you stock X cartridge?”

[dealer]”No, we don’t like it, we stock Y.”

[customer]”Can I hear it in a P9 then?”

[dealer]”No. We don’t stock the P9, because we don’t like it, we only like LP12s, and we don’t normally do cartridge dems anyway.”

[customer]”So I assume you’ll do me a very competitive price seeing as you can’t do a dem then?”

[dealer]”No.”

Customer leaves shop and asks for unbiased cartridge advice from real users on internet site, then goes for price at least 25% cheaper than dealer…

Being honest, if I could think of one dealer in the North West that could do a proper cartridge dem I would consider paying the extra. As it is I am just going to order the MC25FL at a discount price.

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Bottom feeding in Loot, whilst helping to keep the rest of us in upgrades is not a recipie for nirvana.

There are, after all, many who have spent significantly less than you and are getting better results by the input and support of a good dealer (and you have had a personal introduction to the best).

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I would love to hear one! My strategy has worked great so far! I’ve got one of the best sounding systems I have heard and it cost me peanuts! You’ll hear no complaints from me. Remember I like Mana! I wish you would buy a Mana wall shelf for that LP12!

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Sorry about the flame but you must know I'm talking sense.

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For the first time ever since I’ve known you I actually think you are talking total bollocks! No hard feelings though, will see you Thursday for a curry!

Tony.

I've been pondering over the move back to vinyl for some time now and recently asked my local dealer if he could let me lissen to a decent vinyl front end.

No problem.

Walked in the shop a few days later and there was a P25 with a Cardas modded RB200 slung with a XX2 sitting on a Fraim. Sounded real sweet too - especially when switched between the nearby Hutter rack and then back again - rest of the system was 500/52(S)/ NBLs (oh yeah the 500 and 52 were on Mana BTW - hardly subjective but hey what the Hell - it sure sounded nice).

Next up came an LP12/Geddon/Aro/TeKaitora combo which frankly blew my bloody socks clean off!(I didn't let on though - they were trying to sell me this thing right?) Again this was switched between the Fraim and Hutter and again the difference was Chalk.... and Cheese.

One was Hifi the other Music - big, expansive, detailed, dynamic - Music!

Then in went a Tom Evans Groove and I was totally converted after about 5 seconds! Man - what a sound!

Oh boy - now this is getting real tempting and I ask about the total package cost. Woah. That's steep! How about losing the Te kaitora for a more reasonable, sensible option?

No problem.

Off came the Aro and after a longish while, on went a 10x4 gold - loads of hassle but they insisted.

Unfortunately - after the TK it was a big, big let down and I offered my apologies and requested time to recoup my thoughts.

It took some serious thinking and I'm still thinking.

Seems not all dealers are the same?

Pete

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I think Mark Dunn raises a good point on VTA. Some of the characteristics you ascribe to different cartridges may be more to do with varying VTAs. This may explain why your experience seems sometimes to be at odds with others'.

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I am sure this is part of the reason. Rega's stance that VTA makes little difference to the sound is one that I have always been at odds with. I have the 2mm spacers, and that got the XX1L pretty close in VTA terms, but it still could have done with going up a bit more. My main issue with that cartridge was that I suspect it needs a phono stage with far more gain than the S boards in my 32.5 to get any sense of dynamics out of it - I was having to wind the volume knob round to about 2 o'clock to get it as loud as CD at below quarter too, and it just sounded lifeless. The Ortofon and Lyra both had twice the output and had some real slam. At least I lost no money at all on the XX1L.

P:

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Seems not all dealers are the same?

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Absolutely! There are some really good dealers out there who still believe in vinyl. The problem is that they are these days a real minority, and getting meaningful cartridge dems is very hard. I am not prepared to travel across the country to get a dem.

Rob:

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Let me know what you think of the Ort.

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Certainly will. I mailed the dead MC10 Supreme and my cheque off today, so hopefully I will get the MC25FL quite soon.

Tony.

Market Forces are one thing, commercial exploitation by huge margin luxury good producers is another.

A new cartridge is not the same as a pack of durex.

Sorry, you are talking bollocks.

No had feelings though - mines a chicken jalfrezi and four pints of kingfisher.

Dev

cheers

Nigel

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In thanks for the coffee on Saturday I would like to suggest that you don't buy a second hand cartridge. I did, and still regret it over 2 years later.

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I have mail ordered a brand new Ortofon MC25FL which I hope to receive pretty soon.

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I paid £250 for a Linn Archiv, with agreement that the local Linn/Naim dealer (very close to your new flat) would check it out and fit it to my Aro. Said dealer did so and wrecked my tonearm, PD came to my rescue. Save yourself some time, grief and eventually money and use a (good) dealer to show you how it should be done.

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I know you guys have absolute trust in your (excellent) local dealer, and also want to do your best in getting new business for him, but some of us simply don’t need someone else fitting cartridges to our decks. I actually find the fear people show of learning how to do this stuff for oneself quite bizarre, just because a person chooses not to work in a hi-fi shop does not mean that they can’t possess the skills to do so. Blind faith scares the crap out of me!

I have always been the type of person that learns in depth about the stuff I am interested in, and I have been setting my own decks up with great effect since the late 70s with my old Lenco 75. During that time I have had learnt a great deal and have had no problems whatsoever. I have rebuilt / fitted arms cartridges to LP12s, Roksans, Aristons, Logics etc.

I must admit that I have over the years seen certain dealers manhandle (other peoples) decks in ways I would never consider, which is one reason why I have learnt all the necessary skills to do it myself. Paul’s own testimony above with a Naim dealer killing his Aro sadly backs this point up. Another reason is I simply hate being dependent on someone else for something so comparatively simple. There is no rocket science nor black art involved here, all you need is some readily available knowledge, a good eye, a steady hand and a couple of readily available tools.

I have also had to fix the after effects for friends when their deck has a badly aligned cartridge, or their LP12 is sagging etc from over quick installation / inadequate setup from certain poorer yet franchised dealers, so my confidence in them tends on the whole pretty low. I have far greater peace of mind knowing exactly what has been done or not done to my deck.

As another example I would never consider letting anyone else set up my guitar or bass for me, again I have learnt the necessary skills to do it myself, and have frequently had people coming to me to do their guitars as I seem to do a better job than many local professionals. This same attitude applied to computers is how I found work in IT.

Tony.

But unfortunatley the Blue Ball at Soyland has recently been turned into a house !

The Tim Taylors "Landlord" crown will have to be passed to The Fishermans Retreat. I have heard that the "Staff" at Todd may well be worth a try,I will report my findings on this one.

...Oh,the F&F analogy scores a very firm 10/10,Ok they are not what you might call cheap,but the service is second to none,their advise is always with your best interest and safety at heart (AND NOT THEIR POCKETS).

Peace of mind and complete confidence are very valuable attributes in whatever anaology is served

Regards

Chris

Iain says you need 4mm spacers for any Ortofon. So you should be in business. We think you should prefer the 25FL since our experience is that it's usually appreciably faster than a 10.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Have a pen and paper handy when listening, and source anything you like online. It usually costs less and I've been surprised at the range of material I've been able to obtain.

I bought 'Lift your skinny fists...' by Godspeed you Black Emperor and Mogwai's 'Rock Action' on vinyl recently via Amazon.

I'm very forunate that I have a good local specialist record store in Sevenoaks that still carries some vinyl, which I use frequently, but it's much easier and often cheaper to buy CD's online. The available catalogue is usually much better than any of the high street chains.

Andy.

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How can you possibly know everything about hifi setup when you can obviously only get your hands on a limited amount of the stuff?

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I would never for a minute suggest that I know everything about hi-fi (or anything else for that matter), and I certainly would not trust a dealer who claimed to either! I am very open to learning, and I certainly don’t intend to come across in any way arrogant. The reason I hang around here is to learn, and it has paid off.

I really don’t understand why I am getting so much stick for simply buying a cartridge mail order. I am not doing some poor defenceless dealer out of business because I never considered myself to have one. I also find the whole notion of hand holding to this level completely alien, we would never have got anywhere as a species following this logic. Picture the caveman being attacked by another tribe, he sees a rock on the ground that he knows will kill his opponent, but is unable to use it because it would offend his local rock dealer, so he ends up with his head cracked open.

We live in a rapidly changing commercial environment, I now buy lots of things in different and usually simpler ways than I once did. For instance the vast majority of music I buy is now bought online from specialist dealers, if this means my local independent retailer goes out of business, then I’m sorry but that’s life. If they could provide the titles I want to buy at a price I am prepared to pay then I would happily shop there, if they can’t I have the option to go elsewhere, and I don’t feel the slightest bit guilty.

Any criticism coming my way from a 30 mile radius of Cheadle must seriously be ignored, these people actually have a dealer who really knows his stuff, and understands a good pint and curry, therefore these customers have a very artificial view of the market, I have unfortunately seen an alarming amount of dealers that I would not even allow to change the record on my system.

Go into things with your eyes wide open, a good dealer is a rare thing, and has an awful lot of merit if you can afford the asking price. Just avoid paying top dollar at ones who don’t deliver the service that you are paying for and have the right to expect. I certainly don’t intend retract any recommendations I have made here on this conference – I still think buying a Nait or 42 / 110 out of Loot for a couple of hundred quid makes way more sense than buying some Arcam integrated at a dealer, same logic goes for second hand LP12s, speakers and countless other items. As consumers we have the total right to make our purchasing decisions without intimidation.

Hmmm, Quadraspire vs. Fraim anyone!

Tony.

Chill-out, pop some "Baby Mammoth" into that Marantz and relax.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

I don't know the Ortofon you've been using but I've owned the MC30s and the 25FL, used in an LP12/Ittok. If you've heard a 30s I'd say the 25FL is a little less bright sounding while maintaining the speed of the 30s. Overall, I'd rate them very close and was able to live happily with both.

Brian

I'm not sure if I should be more disturbed that you knew how to spell "5ive", or that I recognised it!

Rico - let them eat Kans.

Thankfully I had to read your post thrice and then was happy I had no idea who the Sugarbabes are.

Rico - let them eat Kans.

Ever since the day it was built, London has been the natural home of the greedy, the ruthless, the unprincipled and the downright nasty.

Thats why its the greatest city in the world.

Regards

Mick

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I suspect that what you really want, (what you really really want)is as Alex S says the ability to use a dealer to demonstrate and Loot to buy from.

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Bollocks, you are turning into Paul Darwin!

For the record I will describe every single dem I have had at a dealers over say the last five years:

1) 1997 - CD player. I listened to the Naim CD3.5 & 3.5 Flatcap vs. a second hand Meridian 508 vs. a Marantz CD17KI at Hi-Fi Experience in Tottenham Court Road London. I bought the CD17 KI.

2) 1998 P9 vs. P25 at The Cornflake Shop London. I had a short list of four decks that I wanted to head to head, these were the Nottingham Analogue Hyperspace, P9, LP12 (I had one at the time) and the Michell Gyro. All I could establish at this dem was that the P9 was a lot better than the P25. I bought nothing.

3) 1998 P9 vs. Michell Gyro vs. LP12 / Armageddon / Aro at Audio-T Reading. I bought the P9 and a Lyra Lydian B.

That’s it! No other dems at all other than sitting in a couple of times when friends are buying. I occasionally go across to Cheadle to have a gab and a curry, and usually have a listen to what is set up, though never consider it to be a dem for me – as an example I heard Fraim vs. Larry’s Quadraspire recently, and whilst it was certainly very interesting it has no relevance to me
personally as I use Mana.

I have never felt particularly comfortable booking dems as I do feel under obligation to buy something, so I only use a dealer if I really need to hear something I have not already got experience with, and as can be seen above I have quite a high buy rate. I bet my buy rate is radically higher than the people who seem intent on criticism.

Even finding dealers with the stuff I want to dem seems next to impossible as I highlight above, I actually had to knock the Nottingham Analogue out of the running despite have a suspicion that it might actually be the best deck purely because I could not find a dealer capable of getting hold of one with the other contenders and Naim amplification. Within the next twelve months or so I want to form an opinion on phono stages, and I can tell that it will be a absolute nightmare to get all the contenders together under one roof: Exposure, Naim, Densen, Linn, Lehmann, Tom Evans, Trichord.

Tony.

I agree with some of the sentiments about time wasters. It's unfortunate that there are people out there who will come along for a demo and then very clearly go off looking for the best deal. We try to be competitive of course, but where one may win on the equipment the other will usually lose on leads, or some other combination.

The really difficult ones are the ones who try to get the cheapest price on their amp, say, when they've agreed that as part of a larger deal at another dealer! Alternatively, we'll have demmed an Arcam a75 with Chord Chameleon and they'll try to get the Chameleon cheap (free?) because another dealer offerred them the a75 with free cheapie ones (which would make the Arcam sound crap of course). Makes a dealer feel lessened.

Suggestion: If you have looked or intend to look for the best price, but would still like a demo, be upfront with the dealer ("I've seen this Ortofon cartridge around for £200 rather than the advertised £250 - would that be a problem?"). A good dealer would probably still go for the demo. He would also prefer that approach since:

1) he knows what to expect at the demo,
2) he'll tell you if he can't match the price or offer an alternative sweetener (e.g cables)
3) it gives him the chance to tell you about his standard add-ons which may not be available from the alternative sources, such as extended guarantees for example.

You would also avoid having to bring up the issue after a possibly very nice demo, which would avoid any guilt trips on your part. If he declines to demo the item, the price you've quoted is either below cost-price to him, or he really can't afford the business cost, or he doesn't want your business which begs the question of whether you want to do business with him.

However, all that said, it's important that the demo is without obligation. It bothers me that Tony feels obliged. Yes, the dealer will try to make the demo as thorough and comprehensive as is sensible/possible in a bid to close a deal, but in the end if you're not happy with the sound, then there really is no obligation to buy on your part since you're not happy with the result!

In the event of "too many options", a good dealer will suggest a cut-down set of options that make sense to him with a view to simply narrowing the focus. Again, he will try for the deal if he can, but only go for it if what you've heard is what you want. If the other options still 'call you', then say so and setup the next demo including your preferred option in the first. This will help you define the criteria on which you will make your choice, as well as help the dealer guide you through the mess that is the HiFi world.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

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Leave poor Tony alone - he's not a time waster.

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Thanks Frank!

Dave C

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Hope you enjoyed last night and will enjoy your second system

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Yeah Thursday was cool. Your Bricks are sounding most excellent, and the Fraim vs. Larry'd Quadraspire was shall we say very interesting! I advise people to listen to this one with their ears, not eyes…

My second system rocks! I spent the weekend moving junk around and setting up the basis of my little studio - The monitoring system is the Nait 1 into Dave C's old Heybrook Point Fives on Kan II stands (yup, got two pairs now!). I had a old Soundstyle rack lying around so the Nait is on that along with my Yamaha RM1X sequencer, I also have a Korg MS2000 synth and a little rack mount mixer which will go on the stand too when I retrieve it from a friends basement. The free Revolver deck will go on a wall shelf when it arrives from Bruce, I will probably buy the Rega shelf for it. I made a lead up so I can run my computer sound through the Nait, so Quake is sounding excellent.

I had never heard the Point Fives before, they are a small infinite baffle design probably about twice the internal volume of Kans, and they sound remarkably good hanging off the end of the Nait. It’s a smooth and quite relaxed sound with good timing, and a surprisingly deep bass, it sounds far better than it has any right to considering there is a Trace Elliot bass amp between the speakers! I remember loving the Heybrook HB2s, though I believe the company is now just a brand name for someone else the way that say Gale are, which is a real shame.

Tony.

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Let me know what you think of the Ort. I'm sure you'll like it.

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Got the Ortofon MC25FL the day before yesterday and have been running it in. Initial response was that it was really bright (I have been having difficulty getting any real bass out of vinyl since moving to my new flat), though it is definitely beginning to warm up now. Tracking is superb, it happily sails through second hand vinyl with barely a crackle and has clear and extended treble, as it warms up it is really starting to play tunes nicely. This is obviously a very good cartridge at a very fair price. I suspect it is a little brighter than the MC 10 Supreme, but this may change as it beds in (its only had about 20 hours so far, and about 16 of them in the run-out of an album over two nights).

I will see how things go over the next few weeks and then evaluate the system as a whole and decide how to make things a little warmer and more natural sounding. I always find that when I move I have to completely rethink the system as the room has to my ears more influence than the hi-fi. Options at that point include reverting back to a LP12 - I have been seriously considering this move since I started using Kans again. I am not convinced the P9 is a great match for the rather lean Kans, the LP12 which in a tonally flat system I usually find bloated really works with Kans. If I decide to go this route it would certainly cost me no money which is a real bonus. I definitely want to keep my Kans as I have such a good pair, and to my mind a better speaker from a musical perspective is prohibitively expensive.

The other big thing I need to consider is auditioning bloody equipment stands again. I have heard the Larry'd Quadraspire Reference stuff against both Hutter and Fraim and massively prefer it to either, what I need to do now is bring my own Mana into the picture. My gut feeling is that I very much prefer Mana to either Hutter or Fraim (neither has done much at all for me so far), but there is something really special about the way that the modified QS handles pitch and musical flow, its this aspect I need to compare properly to Mana with my own ears. IMHO Mana will take some beating, especially in the timing and detail areas, I need to try this out for myself before investing further.

Tony.

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I've just returned from holiday and read your comments. Rude and patronising eh. I'll be in the North West next week and be more than happy to explain why it is difficult for a dealer to stock a vast array of equipment on demonstration when some people refuse to use them and buy from them to allow them to make a profit to reinvest in dem gear. Not exactly rocket science is it.

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It was not your point about time wasters that was the issue, it was your assumption that I was a time waster just because I buy largely second hand that was completely out of order. If I don't dem at a dealer I am not a time waster. Not exactly rocket science is it.

Tony.

I think you're being unfair to Tony. He's not going to dealers to hear everything under the sun, then buying cheaply from someone else or off the Net. He's asking people on this forum what they think about some specific Ortofons, then buying at a discount. He's wasting nobody's time or resources.

I understand and agree that good dealers (well, even bad ones) shouldn't be used as one's private demo facilities, but it's obvious that Tony's not guilty of this.

I'm sure this is just a misunderstanding that could be easily cleared up with an apology.

Joe