AAaaaaaarrrrggh!

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

I agree -- and probably many others do as well -- with everything you've just written about supporting your dealer. Every piece of hi-fi equipment (except for two -- one napsc and one cartridge) I've ever owned over the past 15 years has been bought from a dealer.

I simply think you were unfairly criticizing Tony when you wrote:

quote:

---

But could I just suggest that you don't waste a dealers time in auditioning the various cartridge options, as, on you own admission you have no intentions of buying one from him even though you may well abuse his professional experience, hospitality, time, set up expertise and demonstration facilities.

---

What's implied (even if you didn't mean Tony does this) is that he's the kind of guy who wants it both ways -- the dem from the best dealer and the component from the cheapest seller.

Maybe we're taking this all too seriously as you suggest. But Tony seems like a decent guy so some of us felt obliged to speak up for him.

Cheers,

Joe

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

quote:

---

By selling things they can offer the facilities that are valued by customers worldwide such as demonstration equipment, demonstration facilities, trained staff, service centres, loan equipment, installation and set up services, knowledge and experience.

---

Agreed -- and when you find a dealer that offers all this, even if it all hinges just on one member of staff, you stick with them.

And what happens then?

The member of staff in question resigns and joins Naim...

Congratulations, Jason G.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

Tony.

PS What the hell is Baby Mammoth?

Try some samples by clicking on http://www.cdnow.com/cgi-bin/mserver/SID=548209442/page name=/RP/CDN/FIND/album.html/artistid=BABY+MAMMOTH/itemid=494427

Believe it or not, Hull seems to be the cosmic centre of chic ambient-funk-Jazz - cf Fila Brazillia, Leggo Beast and The Solid Doctor

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

[This message was edited by Andrew Randle on FRIDAY 03 August 2001 at 00:12.]

It appears to me FWIW that Paul might have mis-read Tony's first post and really thought that Tony intented to use a dealer for a dem, then buy elsewhere. If that had been Tony's intention (there is no evidence to suggest it was and Tony subsequently confirmed he had no such intention) then IMHO Paul's comments would have been quite appropriate.

I would be interested to learn what Naim's position is with regard to (the principle of)people who do not use dealers, only buy second-hand privately and canvas the views of others through this forum (other than the fact this seems to be a pretty hit-and-miss way to choose a hi-fi system and the fact that we couldn't all do it)

Cheers

Don

Glad to see you guys enjoying life to the full, just like George W Bush.

Me? I spend most of it upside down or listening to music. Seems perfectly fine to me, so i'm all right Jack too!

Didn't actually notice Paul's apology, must have missed it but what the hell, I've got a life now so can't be bothered to look again.

Sorry about chucking this brick.....REALLY

Cheers REALLY

Don

I didn't actually miss them, just didn't think they were proper as I said in my first post above. The last one was, IMHO, very clear and proper.

I happen to agree with what you have said about dealers and 'box-shifters'.

Also happen to agree with you and Oscar about values.

Can't figure out how to end this post on a more upbeat note, but

Cheers-REALLY

Don

None of us are MINDreaders, but IMHO some of us can't even read.

Can't quite understand why you are interpreting Paul's FIRST post differently to me. It is ADDRESSED to Tony. It takes a bloody great swipe at the poor sod.

Or have I missed something?

but cheers anyway-really

Don

It's always a nice day for it, have a good one
Steve
PS: I've now posted a poll on the subject of whether Mana should use dealers to sell their gear, or not - as is currently the case, correct me if I'm wrong!

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on MONDAY 06 August 2001 at 04:48.]

quote:

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I am now fascinated by Tony's admissions that Mana may not be better than Larry's QS Reference tables.

---

Larry's Quadraspire allows equipment to play music fabulously well, and whilst I have not heard it against Mana it only took me about eight bars of music to prefer it to Fraim and way less than half that to prefer it to Hutter. I have absolutely no idea how it will stack up against Mana, this is what I need to find out. The only thing I can say for sure is the system I head in Larry's shop does note pitch far more convincingly than my own. The source and preamp used were both better (far more expensive!) than mine, so this may be the only reason, but you know nagging doubts... I will have to dem it properly at some point, certainly before I invest any more in stands.

Obviously my preferences are based on my musical priorities, that the QS is a no-brainer win for me against the other stands I have compared it to is purely down to my personal preference - I will always sacrifice detail for musical integrity. Both Hutter and Fraim to my ears sound more detailed, but the QS portrays pitch and timing in a manner which is far more realistic to me. I have little doubt that Mana will retrieve more detail and certainly have greater dynamics, but for me this contest is about pitch and timing, and as Mana is excellent at timing, the contest is probably just about pitch. There are other factors I need to understand, one being how much the non-ferrous environment of Larry's shop is benefiting the sound (I have heard the non-ferrous effect dem'd convincingly), this is simply not possible for me to replicate as my room is not (and can't become) a dedicated listening area - the Quadraspire would have to win against Mana in a electromagnetically "dirty" environment.

Another issue is exactly which particular variation of Larry's stand do I like? I would need to re-evaluate the new black shelves with silver tubes against the older veneered and drilled shelves with black pipes. The new shelves did seem to have a little more rhythmic push and detail, but to my ears at the expense of a slightly over bright or toppy sound. I have also only heard CD used in dems, CD is my second priority source, so the winning stand will be the one that works best with vinyl.

Tony.

quote:

---

I heard the QS ref and Hutter at another dealers and came to the exact oposite conclusion as I said in the equipment support thread. Although I do agree with you on the Fraim, but I thought it sounded more like the QS ref than the Hutter. Must be down to location, and or equipment used (Naim CDX + XPS, 82, Hiccap 250 in my case).

---

The equipment used has been CDX, 102, 180 and either Credos or some equivalent priced JM Labs. I have also heard Hutter in three peoples homes with very good (expensive) systems and I still have exactly the same feelings about the way it handles (doesn't!) musical flow and timing. To me Hutter fragments the music into elements that do not sit together properly - its detailed and fairly open, but to my ears it totally kills the groove and flow of a song. So far I really hate it!

My personal feeling on the stand ranking is Mana / QS Ref (winner to be decided) > Fraim > > Hutter.

quote:

---

Assuming this stand had the "wiasted" tubes in silver with black non-veneered shelves then it is the final and according to Larry and QS the best sounding version. Was this the one you heard?

---

I heard a total mix 'n' match table against Fraim. The table was the veneered version with largely black tubes, the top level had silver, and it did not have the Reference base. At a point in the dem the a new black shelf with silver waisted tubes was added for comparison. I need to re-evaluate this before really commenting, it certainly added something, though may also have lost something. The Quadraspire I heard against Hutter was all the older design.

Tony.

quote:

---

The invasion of Poland and now Tony breaks a needle.

---

Yeah, I pictured this as being a thread with about six replies from Ortofon owners!

quote:

---

How is the MC 25?

---

Aha, back on topic!

I reckon I am getting close to having run in my new MC25FL, its up to about 50 hours now. I left it playing the run-off of an album for a few nights as it really seemed quite horrible to start off with. It initially sounded thin, over forward, and a bit harsh with little articulation or tune playing going on in the bass, though now has totally changed in character. I would describe it now as being a great all rounder, it seems neither bright or dull, bloated or lean, It is fast and agile and has a good 'fun factor'. It is to my ears very similar to the MC10 Supreme, perhaps a tad brighter and tighter (it may still be bedding in), but very obviously of the same heritage. After living through its run-in period I fully understand why Vuk disliked the Ortofon he tried, unfortunately you need to audition a well broken in one. It’s a great cartridge, and is a total steal for the money.

The other thing I have done is to get hold of a 130 gram Express Machining Heavy Weight ( www.expressmachining.com ). This is a direct replacement for the stock Rega counterweight, and works on the principle of lowering the centre of gravity and also coupling itself far more rigidly to the arm. Sonically it is very obvious that the cartridge is much happier in the groove, surface noise is clearly reduced, and the Rega counterweight is revealed as having a slightly zingy sound in the upper mid / top. Initially the cleaning up of these frequencies can be interpreted as a slight loss of excitement, but it soon becomes obvious that it does sound clearer and generally better. The bass is more extended and weighty, no bad thing on the excellent but rather lean sounding P9. I have not done too much A B-ing with this weight so far, though my initial impressions above seemed pretty clear, I will re-evaluate it properly at a point when I am convinced that my cartridge is fully bedded in.

Tony.