Bruckner, again (and Graham's thoughts on Celibidache sought)

Well, this morning I listened to that Knappertsbusch 8th from Berlin in 1951 and remembered how very fine it was (if the quality of the sound left a little something to be desired). I was also surprised that it fitted on to 1 disc. Suffice to say that on Monday when I pop into the shops to pick up the new Haitink/Chicago Mahler 3, the Knappertsbusch box may also be coming home with me.

However, I really would appreciate any thoughts on Celi or Wand.

regards, Tam

tam,

i've got all of bruckner's symphonies, as well as his masses (three of the e minor), but it is a potpourri. i do have one by wand, the 3d, and i think it's pretty good, w/ good sound. unfortunately i don't have time to listen to it this minute, but will make a point of listening to it over the weekend, and i'll give you a report later.

i do have a couple from the chailly series, which i think is a good effort ("0" and 1). possibly my favorite bruckner recording is the 9th, jeffrey tate (rotterdam phil) - seems to achieve the required level of majesty. also have the 9th, and 6th by inbal, who i consider to be a decent bruckner and mahler conductor (seem to have the same skill-set for the orchestra and conductor). the only 8th i have is by von karajan, who has become less of a favorite to me in recent years, but the man knew how to put on a symphony.

anything you hear from my corner should be taken with a graiin of salt, as i purchased a lot of my classical collection used when i was young(er) broke and foolish. however, i mostly listen to classical and have about 1,200 classical cd's and uncounted (literally) numbers of lp's. and frankly doing legitimate critical listening requires a certain amount of patience, time, and recordings, the former two of which i am short on.

btw, tonight i'm going to see/hear nevsky at the disney hall, full press court, l.a. phil and l.a. master chorale, WITH synchronised film.

rgds., fid

Dear Tam,

As a matter of interest Furtwangler's torso recording of the Sixth is all we shall ever have from him. He only performed the Symphony a handful of times and that part recording is all that there is - apparently the tape of the First Movement was either deleted [recorded over] or lost, but in any case it is gone. He never led the Symphony again. Klempperer made a truly splendid studio recording with the Philharmonia, and I have heard Jochum's Deesden performance and very much liked it [both on EMI]...

I am struggling more and more with these huge Romantic Pieces these days. They seem to take an age to say what Haydn says in twenty-five minutes. There is an awful lot of Haydn I don't know nearly well enough! I admire your stamina! [Thus spake the "old man!"].

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Tam, my apologies for not replying earlier, I'm away from home at the moment.

Celi and Bruckner, eh.

As you probably know, Celi devoted himself to three orchestras in then last three decades of his life. If you think Danish RSO in the late 60s/early 70s, then the SWR Stuttgart for 10 years or so in the 70s/80s and finally another decade or so with the Munich PO, you'd be about right. He refused to make recordings, but his concert and studio performances were taped and kept. After his death, DG acquired the rights to the Danish and Stuttgart tapes and EMI got the later Munich ones. (As an aside, consider the fact that Munich had Carlos Kleiber at the Bavarian State Orchestra at the same time as Celi was at the Munich PO: they didn't get on well together, apparently. Lucky Bavarians, though!)

The DG Bruckner recordings are of the Third, Fourth, Fifth, Seventh, Eighth and Ninth Symphonies only. The Fourth was recorded live at the Berlin Philharmonie with the Danish orchestra on tour in the late 60s (as far as I remember), and the great Robert Simpson thought the performance "revelatory". The Seventh was recorded at Celi's very first concert with the Stuttgart players in 1971 (?), with the others following over the next few years.

How do they sound? Well, I'm always reticent to express my own views on music, but what always strikes me on listening to Celi is the extraordinary homogeneity of the orchestral sound (he had very particular ways of tuning his orchestras and unconventional ideas on bowing technique), allied to interpretations which appear to have been thoroughly and minutely prepared, but then played with great sweep and passion. His climaxes are awesomely loud, but never just noisy (if that makes any sense), just as quiet passages are played with sensitivity and real gentleness.

The recordings are good, but not state of the art, and Celi can often be heard shouting at his players. I rather like this, but others may find it disconcerting.

Celi then went to Munich , where his Bruckner performances became revered above all else that he performed in his time there. They also became, in almost all cases, MUCH slower. Some listeners find some revelatory, Zen-like passages of calm in the slow movements (Celi was a Buddhist). Others complain that all movements become slow movements, and that the symphonies are grotesquely mauled about.

The obvious suggestion is to get the DG set while you can. It's available as a budget price 8CD set in the Collectors' series, with good notes, and has one symphony from Schubert and Mozart apiece thrown in as fillers. It's a magnificent achievement and it's hard to imagine any admirer of Bruckner being disappointed. Then, if you will, acquire later EMI releases as supplements - I didn't bother.

Hope this helps.

Best regards, Graham

I do recommend the Furtwangler Beethoven 9th from the early 50s recently re-issued on EMI. For some reason, the Bruckners seem to have succumbed to bad storage/transfers on my set which I have dificulty looking (hearing) through.

The problem with the EMI Beethoven Choral Symphony performeance led by Furtwangler [live at The Wagner Theatre reopening] is that in common with all other existing recordings of the work under Furtwangler, the slow movement is so much too slow that the poor horn players stand no chance of ever playing the notes! If this was Beethoven's intended tempo he would have written completely different horn parts. It may appeal, but it is not true to Beethoven's intentions. Therefore I believe caution needs to be excercised before any recomendation is made for the performance - enjoyable for some perhaps, but recomendable, surely not..

ATB from Fredrik

On Bruckner, there are a number of highly recomendable performances in good sonics with avoid the pitfall of unduly slow tempi. As a cycle I would send the listener to the DG BPO set, or the later EMI Dresden State set both led by E Jochum, as starting points.

One of the strange things about the playing of the high Romantics in the second half of the twentieth century was the ever slower tempi, which increasigly [and erroneously] were and and are considered normal. In my view the expression and emotional drive of the music is dilated to a point where it becomes nothing more than a succession of beautiful chords, hardly related to each other in any meaningful way, if the tempo is allowed to sag too far...

ATB from Fredrik

This should have read...

quote:

On Bruckner, there are a number of highly recomendable performances in good sonics, which avoid the pitfall of unduly slow tempi.

ATB from Fredrik

Don't neglect HvK's Bruckner - the BPO cycle is still arguably the best complete set out there and his two late recordings of the 7th and 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic are nothing short of lifechaging - especially the 8th. The "difficult" 6th has been rescued for us by Klemperer in a truly astonishing recording with the Philharmonia - even Karajan never quite got to grips with the A major! And, for all his faults, I wouldn't be without Jochum's set with the Dresden Staatskapelle.

EW

Dear EW,

I did mention that fantastic Klemperer led performance of the Sixth, for fear some might think that I think he is the "only" great German conductor. Really I only think he is "almost" the only great German conductor [Smiley]! Nikisch was quite good!! Karajan was Greek/Austrian!

ATB from Fredrik

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Fidelio - I must look into some of the Tate recordings. He'd never really occurred to me as a Brucknerian since I only know him from directing the English Chamber Orchestra on Mitsuko Uchida's wonderful (well, I think so, at least) survey of the Mozart piano concertos.


Graham - thanks for that. I was leaning that way too. But I did read a Gramophone review that said some rather special things about the EMI recordings, especially the 6th.


Fredrik - It is a real shame that the first movement of that Furtwangler 6th is lost. His 5th, 8th and 9th symphonies that I have are wonderful recordings. I think I shall resist temptation as far as this disc is concerned though, as I suspect it might be terribly frustrating.

What you say about slower tempi is very interesting. A friend on another forum said much the same thing. I tend to prefer quicker performances of Bruckner, Blomstedt gave a rather slow 8th in Edinburgh last summer which didn't really hang together (though I was in something of a minority with that view). That said, sometimes taking things slowly can be really something - Knappertsbusch in Bruckner for example a key example, or some of Bernstein's late recordings (Sibelius is a fine example).

I strongly disagree with you as regards the Furtwangler Beethoven 9th from Bayreuth, which is one of my favourites, and one which I would have not hesitation in recommending. True, he doesn't follow Beethoven's markings, but I find the effect wonderful. It's worth noting that Klemperer isn't exactly zippy (taking over 3 minutes more than Mackerras's historically informed reading, more than 10 minutes over the reading). It's a little while since I last had a listen, and I'll have to do so again, but I don't remember the horns struggling, or if they did, it didn't detract from the performance. Doubtless, you will argue that Klemperer is faster enough that this isn't a problem, but I find his performance rather dull, something Furtwangler certainly isn't. If one is going to be restricted to recordings that stick close to Beethoven's intentions, then the amount of recordings to choose from shrinks quite dramatically.

Klemperer the only great German conductor! Furtwangler, Jochum and Knappertsbusch (to name just 3 off the top of my head).


Lastly, I'd strongly echo what has been said about the Jochum. I have his wonderful Dresden series (now available quite cheaply on Brilliant) and will probably one day add the BPO set as well.


regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

I fear that we shall not agree about Klemperer's and Furtwangler's way with Beethoven. I listened to both the other night one after the other in the Fifth Symphony, and that was instructive. BPO/WF - HMV studio 1937. VSO/OK - Vox studio about 1950. Klemperer's Orchestra is not quite in the same league as the BPO, but actually has a clearer sense of good balance and a very stylish way in the strings.

As for pure excitement the Furtwangler wins, of course! But again the great orchestra he had available scrambled crucial parts because WF simply pushed the tempi too fast in places, and on others builds a dam against the logical musical flow with massive slowings, so large that they cease to be organic and sensitive, but merely a willful disregard for the fact that no such stalling intervention is indicated in the score...

The only way that I can point out the dire sections in the horn parts in the Bayreuth set of the Choral under WF is by reference to bar numbers. In a way it would be a shame to spoil it for you, if you have not spotted the blemishes, and if it gives pleasure as it is. [I can send you chapter and verse just what is wrong by email if you would like]. As for Klemperer's three recordings, the two live ones certainly have the element of extra sense of occasion that often accompanies live performances. His studio set is slightly slower than the two live sets, but his aims are to underline something else in the music than the extreme of excitement. Here we get an almost unworldly trancendental vision that looks a long way further than sweet drawn out tone, posing as profundity. It is strange to me that you prefer Furwangler's inordinately slow readings, pass over Klemperer's quick and entirely lucid, but not overdriven ones, and then again seem to like the extreme fastness of MacKerras. I don't think you will like Klemperer's [if at all in fact] until you get hold of the 1960 [or '61?] live recording [in mono] from the RFH on Testament. I wrote about that on my Thread on Klemperer's new issues of Beethoven if you want to read an attempt at a description of its qualities.

On the issue of great German conductors, that comment was of course, at least partially tongue in cheek! [Smiley] What I will say is that Klemperer was one of the giants among them, but is still not generally recognised even today, among a large number of people! There is a similar situation with Walcha [hence the paucity of his recordings issued by EMI], whose sane readings, slightly austerity [sometimes very great austerity], and sagascious comprehenesion of the need to use the music's architecture as a profound musical expressive means is entirely parallel with Klemperer's way. Neither ever overcook the moment for effect, but build cumulative performnances that clinch only once [at the main climax of emotional expression] in a whole piece, rather than blowing hot and cold all the time like Furtwangler seems to do in almost everything he touches. Not a great surprise really when you consider all their respective musical trainings. Klemperer and Walcha both suffered immensely, and Furtwangler was someone who stepped with ease [backed by powerful patronage] straight into the top jobs in German Orchestras with no struggle, right in front of others who clearly were both finer musicians and more eminently qualified. In that case I am certainly not refering to Klemperer, at that time, but that other great Mahler student, the Berlin born Bruno Walter, as the prime example.

To be honest I think Furtwangler had no idea about Beethoven at all, and had to play about with the surface of the music as a substitute for an understanding of its inner logic. He wrote acres on it and all these words are undone when in his last months he conceded that his tempo fluctuations were wrong, and he would henceforth adopt single basic tempi for whole movements, and relate these as Betthoven prescribed in metronome markings, in ratio at least. [WF's own words, from the WF Notebooks 1924-1954]. The only performances of his that coresponds to this idea are the two Beethoven Symphonies [5 and 6] given in May 1954 in Berlin. Here the vision is entirely stable [not unlight Klemperer's tragic late readings, and every bit as dauntingly slow], and perhaps we can see that he was finally learning that he had completely misunderstood Beethoven all his life, even if the new style seems even less compelling than those very late Klemperer recordings, which in my view have done his musical reputation immense damage, posthumously.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Dear Fredrik,

Have just had another listen to the Bayreuth 9th and you're quite right about the horns - I can't think why it hasn't jumped out at me before (it's very noticeable indeed).

However, I'm not certain that the speed is entirely what's to blame. I've also had a good listen to another performance, and one that is fully a minute slower in the adagio - Bernstein's 1989 'ode to freedom' performance (which features a scratch orchestra from Dresden, the Kirov, the LSO, the NYPO and the Orchestre de Paris) and the horns get by okay.


As ever, what you write about Furtwangler is fascinating (and only adds to the list of things I ought to read up on further). But I don't at all agree he had no idea how to play Beethoven. Horns not withstanding, the Bayreuth is a thrilling performance. As, for me, is the 1944 eroica and some of his readings of the overtures (and plenty more besides). If recordings such as these represent a complete misunderstanding, then I'm not sure I want to understand.

regards, Tam

Dear Tam,

There is strain in the horns in the 1954 Philharmonia live recording at Lucerne under WF as well for the same reason of slowness, though they manage to play all the notes. There is a Vienna performance which is more flowing and nothing goes awry in that. Even the Wartime recording is not entirely without its moments at similar points. I just find it a stressfull listening to players struggling like that...

For my own interests now I shall have to dig the score of the Choral out, and put a metronome over the Klemperer performances to see just how much deviation from the marked metronome tempi Klemperer uses! I promise not to fake the results!

I think that Furtwangler had a grand way with Bruckner, Wagner, and R Strauss, but I am increasingly finding it hard to accept what, after a while, seems like at least performing mannerisms in his Beethoven conducting. He was a man of deep passions, but some of them seem unsuited to Beethoven's works to me!

Sorry to be such an old stick in the mud! Fredrik

Dear Fredrik,

Not a bit of it - as I have said many times before, it would be frightfully dull here if we all agreed all the time. And disagreeing with you is just as fascinating as agreeing.

I actually do agree that Furtwangler's Beethoven is mannered (though I think most of his recordings are mannered). I suppose the difference is that, at the moment, most of those mannerisms take my fancy.


regards, Tam

Sleepless in Worcester, and Sleepless in Edinburgh! Goodnight, dear fellow music lover! Fredrik

This has been an interesting post for me. Not long ago I attended a concert performance of Bruckners 8th. I had never listened to any works by Bruckner before. At the end of the concert I was somewhat transfixed. I did not want to move and in fact the concert hall had emptied by the time I felt I should leave as the ushers were looking at me askew. The reason I did not want to leave is that it honestly felt like the hall had a massive energy force constructed in the middle of it and I felt like I was plugged into it and did not want to detach myself. Naturally I felt this was sourced from the music. At the risk of sounding like an addled hippy I could almost feel this "energy building" getting bigger throughout the symphony. It was a quite awe-inspiring experience.

But my immediate conclusion at the end of it was that if that was typical of Bruckners music then it would be pointless trying to listen to Bruckner other than in a live concert. I know that the live concert will always be the ultimate for any music but honestly in this case I feel it is the only way to be able to experience Bruckner. CD or LP through a hi-fi would be a lost cause.

Now these are the words of a complete Bruckner novice but I am interested in the thoughts of you other good people on this. My friend at the concert agreed with me and is far more greatly steeped in knowledge of classical music. It turned out he has never bothered to own a Bruckner recording for that very reason.

So what do you all think ...... given a good few of you obviously do own large quantities of the mans music?

Regards

Norman

Dear Norman,

In my experience, you have come across the reason why a good live concert os always going to be completely different and to any replay or relay.

Such experiences can be got from certain recordings, but this is in the realms of chamber music, and not the very largest scaled recordings which will always be a pale relflection of the large scale concert experience at its best. I bet you have no idea how the music went [in terms of interpretation] either. I remember once climbing a lamp post in Gloucestre after a performence of Elgar's Draem Of Gerontius, in a semi-high state after a performance in the Cathedral. Yet I had no idea just what the details of the performance were!

I heard later [in the pub] that some felt it was slow etc, etc... I could not have cared less, as it seemed perfect to me!

ATB from Fredrik

I agree about how special live performances can be (there was some very special Bruckner, and some less so, when they did a complete cycle at last year's Edinburgh festival).

However, I can think of few works, and certainly the symphonies of Bruckner would not be among them, that cannot translate magically onto the silver disc. And I think most of the Brucknerians I know would hold to that view. True it will never be quite the same but a good disc on a good hi-fi and you can wind up pretty close.

I went to the complete cycle in Edinburgh (well, I say complete, the 0th and study symphonies were not included, no bad thing in my book). Some were exceptional (Oramo's first, for example) and Runnicles' magically light 6th. Interestingly the BBC recorded them (though they did so, so terribly, I haven't played either since the broadcast). Others were less special, Blomstedt didn't, for me, pull of his slow tempo and Deneve's 4th was just rather dull (always a bad sign when you come out humming the penultimate movement). The latter is an interesting example, as I would have found a good CD far more enjoyable.

Bear in mind too, that there are some exceptional Brucknerians: Jochum, Knappertsbusch, Giulini and Furtwangler to name just those who spring most readily to mind, who can no longer be sampled in the concert hall. I certainly wouldn't want to be without their recordings.


regards, Tam

Thanks to both Fredrik and Tam.

It appears I will have to give a CD version of th 8th a go and see what happens. Have noted the recommended composers and shall seek them out for a listen at my local store.

And I agree Fredrik I had no idea of the interpretation but the pure feeling of the whole thing made that of no consequence to me. Liked the lampost story - could completely relate to it.

Nice one gentlemen.

Cheers

Norman

It's a good point Fredrik makes about interpretation. Often, though by no means always, I find it very difficult to describe what it was that made a live concert quite so magical. It's much easier when they're less good.


regards, Tam

gentlemen,

i was rather pleased to note norman's experience, as i have had similar episodes after attending concerts of wagner, mahler, beethoven, and bruckner. unfortunately, good seats are required, too -- and none of these pieces will produce this magic on anything but top-notch playback systems that do bass right. this is a completely different issue than enjoying music, which can be done on a mono table radio or ipod. it involves a visceral effect pounded into the heart by the majesty of the full-volume romantic orchestra, with its tympanis, multiple double-basses, and horn sections. there is nothing else quite like it. as stated by a very non-classical-music-trained babe who accompanied me to his 8th (salonen and the l.a. phil.) some years ago, "bruckner rocks."

artie

quote:

Originally posted by fidelio:
as stated by a very non-classical-music-trained babe who accompanied me to his 8th (salonen and the l.a. phil.) some years ago, "bruckner rocks."

artie

He certainly does! Where does one find such babes?!

The 8th certainly inspires awe, with its mountainous 1st movement with that pulverising coda, the bucolic - to simplify matters! - 2nd movement, an adagio that I won't even try to describe, except to say it's probably the greatest slow movement after that of Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata (...okay, and maybe after the 'dankgesang' too, but you get the picture?!), and its awesome and bewildering finale. The 8th is the colossus!

I remember a concert Gunther Wand gave in Edinburgh with his NDR orchestra, I think in the late '90s. It was a packed festival audience, the sole work on the programme the 8th. The effect from the moment he creaked painfully onto the stage was electric, and once he lifted his baton and the music started it was like he'd been plugged in! I don't think I've ever seen an audience so affected by a concert. Afterwards, dazed and awed, they just sort of shuffled out of Usher Hall looking slightly lost!

Back 'on-topic', as it were, Wand's recording (live, I think) of the 8th doesn't even come close to capturing the live event, and I'm not the only person to have noticed this. The finest 8th on record by 100,000,000,000 miles is Karajan's with the Vienna Philharmonic - a recording so good it'd still be worth having if it was the price of a family saloon! Generally, I'm as happy if not happier to listen to recordings, especially since it's hard to find a concert anywhere in the country worth turning out for; but just occasionally the concert hall does what cannot be done by any other means; what, indeed, it OUGHT to do on a regular basis, but that's another matter! Like most other things I could mention, it is in a parlous state of decline, and serious and effective classical music is now the preserve of the compact disc.

EW

Agreed completely. Is the Bruckner Eighth done with the VPO on DG under Karajan his greatest reording, and quite possibly the most involving recording of the work on records? I think so, and I am no particualr fan of HvK! It is a regret for me that no recording of Bruckner is to be had from Sir Adrian Boult, where the legend has it that he fully understood the needs of the music, and regularly turned out wonderful performances in his BBC SO days. Tortelier made some wise critical observations on Boult's way with the Austro-German Romantics, but he was coming from a performer's standpoint, rather than the angle of media promotion, and hype is more important these days than musical talent, with disasterous results in the modern concert hall. [We do have Boult's recordings of Brahms, Schubert and Schumann as well as some Mahler to show the accuracy of Tortelier's remarks!]. Of course that was at a time when making complete recordings of Bruckner symphonies was a big rarity! What a loss that not one seems to exist from Boult. There was one disaster in the studio, however, when the doyen of English conductors had just been told that his retirement from the BBC would be "enforced" at the standard age of sixty - "sacked" as Boult put it: He slammed through Bruckner's Seventh Symphony in forty minutes leaving twenty five minutes in the schedule to fill, improntu! This seems to have been the sole time he lost his temper and professionalism in the BBC studio! A recording of that would indeed be a fascinating if terrifying ducument. One player said that it was completely terrible as there was no chance that even the notes could be played properly, and all music was extinguished...

Tam sums up many of the great Brucknerian conductors of a previous era, but Gunther Wand was the last link to a completely lost sensitivity in this music in my view. The decline is inexorable, sadly. To his list might reasonably be added the readings of Bruno Walter, and also Otto Klemperer, whose recording of Number Six is about as fine as it gets.

Kindest regards from Fredrik

Do you guys mean the 8th HvK he made at the end of his life ? That surprises me, as much his output of that time isn't remembered for its quality.