Bruckner, again (and Graham's thoughts on Celibidache sought)
Posted by: Tam on 01 June 2007
I've been listening to a lot of Bruckner lately (actually, I've been doing a lot of listening lately, which has meant less writing, or to be more accurate, less typing and posting, since I have a growing pile of illegible notes). In particular, I've been working through Barenboim's cycle of the 9 symphonies with the Berlin Philharmonic and, as I come to the end, I find I'm really not sure about it. The 4th was particularly impressive and 2, 3 and 5 were not at all bad. But 1, 6 and 8 have been somewhat disappointing (I haven't got to 9 yet). Either way, I'm not sure I'll be keeping the box.
However, at the same time, after a buying spree of BBC Legends discs, I've been very much enjoying Giulini, particularly in a wonderful 7th, as well as Jochum in a live reading of that same work (courtesy of a friend from another forum) and Furtwangler. Today, when I stopped into my local CD shop on the way home from work, I was very excited to see a number of new Furtwangler discs. It turned out most were recordings I already had on various DG boxes but one was new: Bruckner 6 (always a favourite of mine). I suppose the fact it was paired with Beethoven's 5th should have been a give away that all was not quite right. To be sure, the price was steep for a vintage recording, but that was as nothing to the disappointment of turning over the disc to learn that only movements 2-4 are included (not least because I probably like the 1st most). Doubtless this is because that is all that was preserved (I can't imagine the company responsible are quite stupid enough to have done it deliberately). So I didn't buy it (as I imagine the result would have been unsatisfying). But I wonder if there exists a Furtwangler 6th in full somewhere.
I also came across a box of Knappersbusch recordings (which were very cheap), but I restrained myself. I have his 8th somewhere so I'll listen and maybe get the rest later. However, there are two other interpreters I'm curious about - Celibidache and Wand. I know Graham in particular has sung the former's praises, and I have certainly been much impressed by some discs I picked up recently (unfortunately they contained no Bruckner). He seems to have recorded the two lots, one in Stuttgart and Sweden and the other in Munich. The Stuttgart and Sweden recordings are earlier and much cheaper, but from the little reading I've done, the Mucich ones may be better, I would be grateful for any guidance. Similarly with Wand, who seems to have recorded an awful lot of times.
In short, all suggestions gratefully appreciated.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 23 June 2007 by u5227470736789439
Very late recording, yes. It is something I never bought, but it was broadcast on BBC Radio Three at the time, and it really took my fancy. It covered two CDs, being just a few seconds longer than they could fit onto one disc in those days, which made it a very expensive issue at the time. I subsequently got Furtwangler's VPO set done in 1944, which I no longer have. I might consider the Karajan set now, even given my lack of enthusiasm for his work in the general. I have no recording of the work at present.
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 23 June 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Cheese:
Do you guys mean the 8th HvK he made at the end of his life ? That surprises me, as much his output of that time isn't remembered for its quality.
It depends who you ask!
I think there was - and still to some extent is - a lot of rather crude anti-Karajan sentiment deriving from (often misguided) misgivings about his political persuasions and the fact that, towards the end, people were just sick of the sight of him. (The egotistical old Nazi varmint!) I think more great conductors site Karajan as their No 1 conductor than any other - even Toscanini was impressed!
His recorded oeuvre is vast, and it isn't
all great; but most of it is at least excellent; in some key repertoire - e.g. Wagner, Bruckner, Beethoven, Strauss, Tchaikovsky (if you're that way inclined!) - he is unlikely to be surpassed. The last two Bruckner recordings with the Vienna Phil, and a recording of the Missa solemnis from (I think) 1985, will silence his critics. I might add the famous live Mahler 9 too. Oh and the Alpensifonie. Oh and Parsifal, Meistersinger, Heldenleben, the early sixties Brahms and Beethoven... it starts to sound like the "what have the Romans ever done for us?" sketch, doesn't it? "Yeah, well, apart from all the peerless recordings of Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Wagner, Strauss, Tchaikovsky, Verdi, Mahler and Debussy, WHAT HAS Karajan ever done for us?!"
Sibelius?
EW
Posted on: 23 June 2007 by Earwicker
... oh yes, and Schumann too!
Posted on: 23 June 2007 by fidelio
quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker:
quote:
Originally posted by fidelio:
as stated by a very non-classical-music-trained babe who accompanied me to his 8th (salonen and the l.a. phil.) some years ago, "bruckner rocks."
artie
He certainly does! Where does one find such babes?!
EW
ew - the classical escort service, of course (this is L.A.!). you fellows don't have that in btitain??
Posted on: 23 June 2007 by Cheese
quote:
anti-Karajan sentiment deriving from (often misguided) misgivings about his political persuasions
I couldn't care less, also because I come from Switzy which didn't behave any better during the war so basically I'd best shut up. And if Heinrich Himmler had been a great conductor he would still be a great conductor, period. No need to mix things up.
quote:
His recorded oeuvre is vast, and it isn't all great; but most of it is at least excellent; in some key repertoire - e.g. Wagner, Bruckner, Beethoven, Strauss, Tchaikovsky [etc., etc., etc.]
Yeah sure but I meant the recordings he made in the 80s in particular. Being a lifelong fan of his '77 LvB symphonies, I was particularly disappointed with his '83 digital set, which was apparently only made for the digiheads of the day. The lack of preparation was obvious, and it didn't surprise me when, some ten years later, I heard an interview of a BPO musician saying that during the 80's HvK had fallen into a recording frenzy and that several discs were recorded after very little preparation, if at all. The BPO are very professional musicians but still !
So this Bruckner 8th looks very interesting to me as I kind of 'got' Bruckner recently, I shall add it to the wish list of my music shoppe.
Posted on: 23 June 2007 by Earwicker
I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the digital LvB set, it's just not as good as the earlier ones. Some very fine HvK recordings indeed date from this era, however. As with anyone who recorded so much, it is necessary to sort the wheat from the chaff!
quote:
And if Heinrich Himmler had been a great conductor he would still be a great conductor, period. No need to mix things up.
I quite agree!
Regarding the Vienna 8th - go for it!!!!
EW
Posted on: 23 June 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by fidelio:
ew - the classical escort service, of course (this is L.A.!). you fellows don't have that in btitain??
Not yet, but perhaps I should found such a service - I've been looking for a change of career!
Posted on: 24 June 2007 by Norman Clature
Fredrik and Tam and one and all,
decided to go out and buy a CD version of Bruckners 8th after my ruminations earlier in this post. Wound up being Celibidache with the Munich Philharmonia. Understand he is a bit of a controversial figure in amongst all of this. But after a lengthy session and discussion at my CD shop opted for his offering. Really liked the way he manages to clearly articulate the layers simultaneouly (someone mentioned harmonics to me). Anyway did it manage to give me anything approaching "the buzz" I got from hearing it live?
Well ...... actually yes. I found it was nothing like as dramatic an effect but none the less I have played it right through a couple of times and the house has to remain in silence for some time after it because nothing can be put on the player straight after it as it would be pointless and not required. It leaves me in quite a contemplative and satisfied state.
So owning a CD copy turned out to be very worthwhile. My earlier question is now answered. And whatever the fuss is about the aparently contentious efforts on Bruckner by Celibidache I think it has tremendous impact. Even the notorious Celibidache slow movement. In fact I found that is where the layers of the music were so beautifully articulated. But one mans meat ............
Anyway one and all this post helped me get over a hang up and thats all to the good. So thanks.
And I will be investigating some of the other recommended performances hereafter.
Cheers
Norman
Posted on: 25 June 2007 by fidelio
quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker:
quote:
Originally posted by fidelio:
ew - the classical escort service, of course (this is L.A.!). you fellows don't have that in btitain??
Not yet, but perhaps I should found such a service - I've been looking for a change of career!
ew - as you state in your post above, "go for it." and isn't there some sort of polling feature on this forum? perhaps adam would be interested in assisting you in getting this off the ground (and there is a goodly supply of wenches in rural france, just dying to hear rattle or the lso, is there not? perhaps a package to the edinburgh festival. lots of possibilities ...). fid.
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by Tam
Was away last weekend (for some non-Bruckner concerts and to see family down south) and am only just catching up.
Wand is missing from my list as I hadn't yet got round to exploring his recordings (and unlike my brother, who heard a number of his Edinburgh concerts, possibly the one EW mentions, and regards his readings very highly) or heard him live. However, browsing in HMV in Oxford Street, I came across his Kolner cycle for just £30 (about a third of what it normally goes for). I've only listened to the first all the way through, though the second is spinning now, but that was very fine and rather refreshingly different from many of the other interpreters I have on disc. HMV also had the EMI Celibidache, but at £125, that wasn't going to happen. I'd agree that Walter was also a fine Brucknerian (and his late Columbia records are very well worth seeking out).
I haven't got round to exploring Karajan in this repertoire either (though, again, I've heard and read many fine things). I've never been a big fan of his, but it has absolutely nothing to do with any political issues. It's to do with the fact that too often I find his recordings over-regimented and staid (I would certainly argue this is true of his Heldenleben, his Planets and his 1960s Berlin Beethoven). However, I have started to come round to him a little of late with a rather fine couple of discs of Sibelius (after Basil's recommendation), and I'll doubtless get to the Vienna 8th in due course.
I think some the antipathy also comes from his constant rerecording (some might say cashing in) or repertoire. I think Graham here once said that he would have been held in higher regard if he'd stopped recording in the 70s. Given what is said about some of his late work, I'm not sure that's entirely true, but I think he would have been wise to record less.
Norman, glad you've got a CD you enjoy out of all this! Further recommendations, would probably include Jochum in the 6th, Giulini's live BBC Legends 7th, any Furtwangler (if you can put up with poor sound) and, similarly Knappertsbusch (especially in 3, 4 and 8). I know Fredrik won't like this suggestion, but Jochum's Dresden recordings are available as an extremely cheap set (and are all very fine), you could always pick those up and use it as a guide to which symphonies you want to explore in more depth.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by u5227470736789439
If I were stareting out I ewould put the dresfden set under Jochum as the starting point, with the priviso that it would be a good idea to add...
Klemperer in the Sixth, Bruno Walter in the Ninth, Karajan in the Eight, Furtwangler [perhaps] or possibly finer Knapertdsbusch [live 1949 at Salzburg with VPO on M&A, USA] in the Seventh, Bohm in the Fourth, and so on. But Jochum is very central, not slow and though not entirely as successful as the best in individual symphonies, then never a disappointment. In fact I prefer Jochum's BPO recording of Four to the Dresden redording, but as a complete and very inexpensive set, then the Jochum EMI Dresden set is entirely recomendable in my view...
For all that I don't like, and would only rarely buy an integral cycle of orchestral symphonic or concertante music...
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
If I were starting out I would put the Dresden set under Jochum as the starting point, with the priviso that it would be a good idea to add...
Klemperer in the Sixth, Bruno Walter in the Ninth, Karajan in the Eight, Furtwangler [perhaps] or possibly finer Knapertdsbusch [live 1949 at Salzburg with VPO on M&A, USA] in the Seventh, Bohm in the Fourth, and so on. But Jochum is very central, not slow and though not entirely as successful as the best in individual symphonies, then never a disappointment. In fact I prefer Jochum's BPO recording of Four to the Dresden redording, but as a complete and very inexpensive set, then the Jochum EMI Dresden set is entirely recomendable in my view...
For all that I don't like, and would only rarely buy an integral cycle of orchestral symphonic or concertante music...
ATB from Fredrik
Apologies for the unusually high typo-count in the original...
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
If I were stareting out I ewould put the dresfden set under Jochum as the starting point
Normally I'd agree - it's excellent and very cheap - but Amazon are selling Karajan's BPO set for £43.97 at the moment (it used to be about £90), and at that price it's worth the extra (I've got both sets).
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Complete-Symphonies-An...d=1183210616&sr=1-24Karajan's is comfortably the best complete set and at that price it's a "no-brainer", in forum-speak!!
EW
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,
This is a bit like cards. I put down the King Of Hearts down, and then you put down the Ace Of Spades! I think you may well be right on this!!! Fredrik
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by Earwicker
Well, with all these things it - sadly in a way - just comes down to price. If Karajan's was four times the price of Jochum's - like it was until very recently - then Jochum's it'd be.
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by Manni
Hello all,
at the moment, I enjoy Bruckner`s late symphonies very much, especially the 8th and the 9th.
My favorite conductor of these works is Günter Wand. Since I´ve listened to his live recordings with the NDR-Sinfonieorchester on RCA, I think Jochum and Klemperer did something wrong.
Using the correct tempi, Wand is imo able to make the complex achitecture of the composition manifest, and so the music´s structure becomes clearer for the listener.
Btw, the sound of the Wand recording ist much better than Jochum´s Bruckner on DG. DG recordings are tonally seldom excellent, it´s a shame.
Best wishes
Manfred
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Manfred,
I had no idea that Klemperer left a recording of either the Eighth or the Ninth. I am aware of a lovely recording from him of the Sixth, and he made a recording of the Seventh that followed an edition other than Bruckner's own urtext, perhaps forty years after these editorial adjustements by other hands had been discredited. It is probably fair to say in that case that Klemperer showed faulty judgement in his choice of edition, but I would be exceptionally pleased to have the chance to listen to the great man's way with the Eighth and Ninth, which are my two favourites! Otherwise I can more or less take or leave Bruckner, at least on records.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by Manni
Hello Fredrik,
I have a recording of Bruckner`s Eighth on vinyl - EMI 1 C 191-02 259/60, Otto Klemperer conducts the New Philharmonia Orchestra. It is a very fine recording, the music is involving and the recording excellent, but I think, Wand is nearer to Bruckner than Klemperer.
All the best
Manfred
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
I had no idea that Klemperer left a recording of either the Eighth or the Ninth
No, it's a new one on me too!
quote:
Otherwise I can more or less take or leave Bruckner, at least on records.
Nos 5 - 9 form a fairly regular part of my listening, but I could live without the 1st four. I usually lose interest after the first 376,000,000,000,000,000 bars of the third!
EW
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by Tam
I don't know, the first is firm favourite of mine, thought not always quite done justice on disc. I wish Oramo would record, the thrilling reading he gave in Edinburgh last summer would probably be enough to win over any sceptic (though probably not via the shoddy job the BBC's engineers did when taping it).
I'm also very attached to the 3rd with its Wagnerian references (particularly when conducted by Knappertsbusch, himself a fine Wagnerian).
But I'm surprised to see the 4th off your list of essentials, granted too often the finale can underwhelm, but when a conductor gets it right.....
regards, Tam
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
But I'm surprised to see the 4th off your list of essentials, granted too often the finale can underwhelm, but when a conductor gets it right.....
To be honest, I find the 4th quite irritating. Bruckner is a composer I had to grow into; when I first listened to his symphonies I thought he was a bombastic old windbag who had to keep saying the same things over and over again (a bit like me!
). It wasn't until I heard Barenboim's 9th (the BPO one, not the Chicago) and Karajan's bloody astonishing 8th with the VPO that I got him. Even now though, although I'd defend every last bar of the 8th, the 2nd movement of the 9th still smacks of bombast, and unless it's very carefully handled so does the 1st movement of the 5th - although the finale is nothing short of a miracle! The 4th sounds like it was written as an exercise - a sort of Brucknerian pastiche by a lesser composer, without any depth or substance. My life would be the better for never having to sit through it again!
When Bruckner's at his best - e.g. the slow movement of the 8th - time stands still; when he's not quite there he's bloody interminable, and the 4th is a sentence!
EW
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by u5227470736789439
I am glad that Klemperer essaued the Eight in the studio. Something for me to watch for in future.
It used to be that the Fourth was regarded as the entrance way to Bruckner Symphonies, though I found it not so. I have a recording of it under Bohm in Dresden [the premiere recording for HMV in Dresden at a time in the '30s when it was not a commercial proposition], and also once had the Decca VPO recording under him, which made a fair advocacy of the music, but the finale does not live up to the first three movements in my experience.
The Fifth I had in two Furtwangler recordings, and the '30s premiere under Bohm. I still have the Furtwangler Salzburg one with the VPO, which is a harrowing listen for me, and I still like the best, the Bohm premiere essay. The Sixth remains an enigma for me. Sometimes I think I like it the best...
The Seventh strkes me as the most accessible, and Kna does rather well in Salzburg [again with the VPO] in 1949 {Music and Arts, USA].
But the Eighth and Ninth seem to engagae me with a rather distressing directness. I don't have recording of the Eighth at all at the moment, but I have the Ninth under Bruno Walter [on CBS], which is slightly soft grained, but works beautifully in terms of clarity, and fine judgemment if not the last element of pure fire, which is part of the concept of the music, it seems to me.
Again this is purely personal, and there is no reason to take my word for it. I am after all someone who loves Bach and Haydn above all. Bruckner and Bach share counterpoint, and with Haydn, Bruckner shares the phenomenon of being able to take the most apparently simple ideas and make them sublime. Neither Beeethoven, nor Brahms had this ability in the same degree [except in the first movement of the Fifth Symphony of Beethoven]. Both managed the compression of Haydn, but both were more extravagant in their use of prolific melody. Haydn would often develope one tune, even in Sonata form [the second subject being entirely derived from the first], which takes true genius. Bruckner often manages the same sort of trick, though without Haydn's concision! Like Bach he could take a basic germ of a melody and turn it into the longest of themes. Bach wrote the longest melodies in the history of music...
ATB from Fredrik
PS: A thought to provoke thought: Was the most wonderful slow movement before Bruckner actually the Largo from Haydn's 88th Symphony in G? Not long in time duration but cosmic in its implications...
Posted on: 30 June 2007 by Earwicker
Fredrik -
I know this is something I shouldn't admit to in public, but I've never heard Haydn's 88th! Something to look out for in future. My knowledge of his symphonies is shameful - but there are even some of the early string quartets I haven't heard!
Back to Bruckner and ilk - as a general rule, can one ever
really trust
any composer who never wrote a violin concerto??!
EW
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,
My relationship with Bruckner's music has been very long, and only partly fruitful. I love the Eighth and Ninth! I used to joke with a friend that if he had written a concerto it would have been for a very large organ, so it would balance his orchestra!
Another side of Bruckner is his religeous choral music, which seems completely different to the Symphonies. I have yet to find a good recording of these peces, for all that. I played in the orchstra on two occasions in the Te Deum, and unfortunately for me the biggest memory of it was counting like mad so that the ostinato bass-line [repeating by the bar for 8, 16 or even 32 bars at a time!] kept the harmony moving in the right places! I ended up finding it a difficult piece to enjoy as a result. The shape seemed calculated rather than organic or somehow felt or inspired...
If anyone has a recomendation for the choral works beside the Te Deum [I have Mehta's VPO recording on Decca which serves but is very weighty], I would be glad to read it.
Altogether his music really is an enigma for me in most cases.
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by Earwicker
I feel a bit like that about Mahler. Some days I get it, others he just irritates me.
