Bruckner, again (and Graham's thoughts on Celibidache sought)
Posted by: Tam on 01 June 2007
I've been listening to a lot of Bruckner lately (actually, I've been doing a lot of listening lately, which has meant less writing, or to be more accurate, less typing and posting, since I have a growing pile of illegible notes). In particular, I've been working through Barenboim's cycle of the 9 symphonies with the Berlin Philharmonic and, as I come to the end, I find I'm really not sure about it. The 4th was particularly impressive and 2, 3 and 5 were not at all bad. But 1, 6 and 8 have been somewhat disappointing (I haven't got to 9 yet). Either way, I'm not sure I'll be keeping the box.
However, at the same time, after a buying spree of BBC Legends discs, I've been very much enjoying Giulini, particularly in a wonderful 7th, as well as Jochum in a live reading of that same work (courtesy of a friend from another forum) and Furtwangler. Today, when I stopped into my local CD shop on the way home from work, I was very excited to see a number of new Furtwangler discs. It turned out most were recordings I already had on various DG boxes but one was new: Bruckner 6 (always a favourite of mine). I suppose the fact it was paired with Beethoven's 5th should have been a give away that all was not quite right. To be sure, the price was steep for a vintage recording, but that was as nothing to the disappointment of turning over the disc to learn that only movements 2-4 are included (not least because I probably like the 1st most). Doubtless this is because that is all that was preserved (I can't imagine the company responsible are quite stupid enough to have done it deliberately). So I didn't buy it (as I imagine the result would have been unsatisfying). But I wonder if there exists a Furtwangler 6th in full somewhere.
I also came across a box of Knappersbusch recordings (which were very cheap), but I restrained myself. I have his 8th somewhere so I'll listen and maybe get the rest later. However, there are two other interpreters I'm curious about - Celibidache and Wand. I know Graham in particular has sung the former's praises, and I have certainly been much impressed by some discs I picked up recently (unfortunately they contained no Bruckner). He seems to have recorded the two lots, one in Stuttgart and Sweden and the other in Munich. The Stuttgart and Sweden recordings are earlier and much cheaper, but from the little reading I've done, the Mucich ones may be better, I would be grateful for any guidance. Similarly with Wand, who seems to have recorded an awful lot of times.
In short, all suggestions gratefully appreciated.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
On the Music of Mahler: I have really only an affection for the Adagietto from the Fifth Symphony! I am sure that this is my problem rather than the music itself, but it has actually become more accute over thirty years...
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by Earwicker
I like the songs more than the symphonies - I like the Ruckert lieder and Das Lied von der Erde. The symphonies... I blow both hot and cold. I'm sure I don't like the 8th though!!
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by Tam
I couldn't do without Mahler. Even in the last couple of days I've been embarking on an enjoyable survey of Barbirolli's recordings, and wonderfully passionate they are too (and remarkably fresh, given how many other recordings I have). I don't think I'd want to be without several recordings of any (though the 8th is rarely brought off well). The only one I can do without is the completion of the 10th, largely because it has never felt fully like Mahler to me (and Cooke himself conceded that was not the point).
As far as Das Lied von der Erde goes, it is surely one of the symphonies in all but name, indeed, he only didn't title it his ninth symphony out of superstition. It's a real shame that so many conductors miss it when surveying them.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by Manni
The beginning of Mahler`s First is imo very impressive, it is like a beautiful, magical sunrise. The fourth movement is extremly stirring. As a young man - many years ago - I listened to it very loudly when I was angry or frustrated, afterwards I felt much better.
Back to Bruckner: His music is very special and is not always suitable, the early symphonies are also not my cup of tea, but the 3rd movement of the Eighth, the final of the 4th movement and the 3rd movement of the Ninth are the peak of romantic music for me.
Best wishes
Manfred
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
As far as Das Lied von der Erde goes, it is surely one of the symphonies in all but name
Yes, I read that too, although I've never quite understood what makes a cycle of unusually long orchestral songs a symphony!?? I rather like it though, whatever it is!
The other symphonies I keep changing my mind about. Objectively they're imaginative, superbly orchestrated, often very beautiful; but there's something a bit plasticy and... um ... well, not
quite kitsch, but something similar about them? I don't know! They have their moments - the 3rd I adore, the finale of the 6th is amazing and the 9th is a rather morbid sort of peach! But the 4th is poo and I'd like to think he was ill when he wrote the 8th. I know it's not fashionable these days to admit to purely subjective preferences in classical music, but damn it all perhaps I just don't always like it! That said, I can see the attraction.
EW
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by Tam
I take your point - in much the same way the 8th isn't really a symphony either (and, at the end of the day, nomenclature isn't important next to whether or not it entertains).
I'm a big fan of the 3rd (particularly of Haitink's various readings, the latest of which has just been issued on the Chicago Symphony's new label and is very fine, though I wish they'd used a horn in the 3rd movement rather than a trumpet).
I'm fond of the 4th, though I think it too is extremely tough to execute. The finale was originally bound for the 3rd (and I sometimes wonder why nobody attempts a performance of the 3rd with the finale of the 4th), and is rarely pulled off well but when done so it has a tantalising beauty (otherwise the movement is an anti-climax). I'm rather fond of the sleigh bells too. You're not alone though, last summer I was at a performance at the Edinburgh festival from Rattle and the BPO and a number of the sponsors didn't seem to feel the need to be quiet for it.
The 8th is trickier still. One of the things I think about Mahler is that he had a genius for orchestration and in particular creating wonderful textures. The 8th, with it's absurd forces, was in some regards the summit of this - I'll always love it for the sheer scale of those opening chords. But even I'd admit its far from perfect, and it's sprawling nature makes it tricky to perform well (I understand those who want nothing to do with it).
I not sure what's wrong with subjective preferences - if we all liked the same things, there would be next to no point in having this forum (or, at least, it wouldn't be very interesting).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by fidelio
geting back to mahler again, one of the pieces they did at the recent ojai festival was "songs of the earth." astounding piece! i am aware most musicologists view it as his actual 9th sym. - i think you have to view that in the context of his work leading up to it to see that - not really anything else to call it (too bad, though, he still didn't beat the nine-symphony curse). in any case, that's basically all he composed, symphonies. i am always amazed when i hear the 9th - he took it to the wall on that one, making romantic music impossible after writing the greatest romantic work ... everyting after mahler's 9th was post-romantic. he's certainly my favorite romantic composer (as long as beethoven can be "classical") - i always get something out of sitting through a mahler piece. mahler adoration is not universal, though! certainly not for everyone. i agree w/ tam that there just aren't many good renditions of the 8th. i had the good fortune to see it live some years ago, it's not done often for obvious reasons, and that was a very good experience.
bruckner for me is problematic. i do have all his symphonies, and quite like some of them (or i should say, some movements), and love to hear him live, but there is something odd about his composing. i've wondered whether he should have been an opera composer, as he wrote well for voices (his mass in e is perhaps my favorite piece), and was certainly able to create dramatic music, but he was completely (in his mind in any case) in wagner's shadow.
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by fidelio:
"songs of the earth." astounding piece! i am aware most musicologists view it as his actual 9th sym. - i think you have to view that in the context of his work leading up to it to see that - not really anything else to call it (too bad, though, he still didn't beat the nine-symphony curse). in any case, that's basically all he composed, symphonies.
That's the only reason I can see for calling it a symphony: when a composer of symphonies writes an orchestral song cycle then that too must be a symphony!! Far more symphonic pieces don't get labeled as symphonies though; I've never heard Brahms's Violin Concerto referred to as his 'real' Symphony No 5, and the piece is basically a symphony with a substantial violin part!!
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
If Brahm's Violin Concerto shows symphonic traits what about the Second Piano Concerto!. If that is not a symphony with obligato piano, I don't know what is! I love it in any case...
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by Tam
And the first piano concerto, for that matter. I wish Furtwangler had recorded it - that certainly would have been symphonic.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 01 July 2007 by Earwicker
Indeed!
It's just become one of those strange fads in modern music criticism that everything written for orchestra must somehow be shoehorned into the category "Symphony". Like in instrumental music, everything seems to be an arc these days! (Good buzz word that, eh?
) They listen to a piece - or series of pieces - by Bach that finish on a key closely related to the 1st and that it's it: "Owwww
wow! It's an
ARC!! And look at this here orchestral song cycle written by a prominent symphonist! Ergo it's really a
Symphony!!! Oh the profundity of our
insights, Tristram!!!"
Ah, it's early in the morning. Me coffee hasn't kicked in yet!
EW
Posted on: 02 July 2007 by fidelio
take it easy - just call it a "symphonic poem."
Posted on: 02 July 2007 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by fidelio:
take it easy - just call it a "symphonic poem."
Or a symphonic arc?!
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
How many symphonic arcs you you need to make a symphonic circle? Perhaps that would be pointless as you would end up where you started!
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 15 July 2007 by Earwicker
Well if you think about it, symphonic sonata form
is circular - you know, ending on the same key you started on! Man, we're getting profound here! We should write a book full of all that po-mo jargon! Relativistic Hermeneutic Metatwaddle and the Feminine Circularity of the Romantic Symphony. (That cursed icon of white male capitalist hegemony!!)
[Edited for typos as usual!]
Posted on: 16 July 2007 by fidelio
wow, e.w. - you're really rocketing into unknown territory there!! metatwaddle!! excellent. must've been reading some fred nietszche, jacques ellul, derrida, or jungian wagner essays, while listening to later schumann or a symphonic poem by liszt (all mispellings intentional) ... fid.
Posted on: 17 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,
Sonata form returning home! So true, but whatever a journey does for one's well being the happiest moment is arriving home, if the better for the experience of the time out!
"Metatweddle!" Brilliant! That ought to become an official new word!
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 17 July 2007 by Earwicker
Posted on: 19 July 2007 by Oldnslow
I'v been listening to Giulini's Bruckner 7th on BBC Legends lately and find it to be a wonderful, beautifully realized performance. Has anyone heard his live 8th on BBC Legends? I am also unfamiliar with his DG recordings of the 8th and 9th, both of which are highly praised by critics, so if anyone wishes to comment on those I would appreciate it. On the strength of this live 7th, I considering investigating more of Giulini's Bruckner.
Posted on: 19 July 2007 by Tam
Dear Oldnslow,
I have the 7th - and agree it's wonderful. I have the 8th too (indeed I have all of Giulini's BBC legends discs) and while it's good, I don't think it's in quite the same league. But it's certainly worth investigating (it's a well filled disc and includes a nice Dvorak 8th).
I don't have any of his DG Bruckner. However, I do have an
EMI box of his Chicago recordings which is well worth investigating - there is an excellent 9th (not to mention a fine Beethoven 7th, Mahler 1st, Brahms 4th and plenty more besides).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 19 July 2007 by Oldnslow
Thanks Tam. That Giulini boxed Chicago set sounds interesting, and can be had very cheaply. I wonder if his DG 8th and 9th arn't soon due for reissue/remastering--seems odd DG hasn't recirculated such famous performances.
Posted on: 19 July 2007 by Tam
Giulini's catalogue is one of those that has some very odd gaps, in terms of what gets reissued. For example, he recorded all the Brahms symphonies (at least twice, some three times), yet at present, it is only possible to pick up recordings of the 1st and 4th (where is the complete VPO cycle!). Incidentally - the Brahms 1st on BBC Legends is wonderful. I also wish more of his Beethoven could be had....
regards, Tam
Posted on: 19 July 2007 by Oldnslow
I'll have to investigate Giulini's recordings further. I learned the Verdi Requiem from his LP EMI performance(I should pick up the remastered version of that).
