Streaming from HDX to another room

Posted by: Et in Arcadia on 29 April 2009

I have an HDX located in the living room. We are having the kitchen extended and refitted and I see this as a opportunity to use the HDX to stream music to the kitchen

The blurb for the HDX says:

"HDX is also IP-enabled and will connect to your home network to form the heart of a multi-room set up, allowing access to your HDX-stored music throughout your home."

The question is, therefore, on the assumption that I put a Uniti in the kitchen, what HW and SW do I need in between the two in order to access the music on the HDX and control the data stream. I can see that I could use the browser or desk top client to set the HDX to play or stop; but that is hardwired to the living room set up. How do I set it up and control it to send a data stream to a remote unit? I am planning to have Cat5 cabling installed as part of the new build.

Any information or thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Posted on: 29 April 2009 by David Dever
A NaimNet / DigiLinX device (with a non-blocking NetStreams switch) is required at the kitchen end (typically, this might be an NNP02 room amp).



You would then point the browser to the IP address of the room amplifier. Contact your dealer for more details.

The kitchen stream is independent of the HDX local output, BTW.
Posted on: 29 April 2009 by Et in Arcadia
David, many thanks. Two questions.
1. Will a Uniti work rather than the room amp? I would like the integrated radio capability.
2. When you say "NaimNet / DigiLinX device (with a non-blocking NetStreams switch)" are you referring to 2 devices (device + a switch) or one (device that includes a switch). If the former is the switch something that I would need a customer installer for?
Posted on: 29 April 2009 by Manu
The switch is a data switch (something like your network router).
Standard computer network router are not really enough for NaimNet network. A switch is more adequate. It is a device where all your home Ethernet runs end.
The NaimNet device is a room amp (NNP01 or 02).

Right now, you cannot stream from the HDX to the Unity. The HDX uses a proprietairy protocole (NaimNet/StreamNet) more powerfull than the standard UPnP in the Unity.
Posted on: 29 April 2009 by SC
quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
Right now, you cannot stream from the HDX to the Unity. The HDX uses a proprietairy protocole (NaimNet/StreamNet) more powerfull than the standard UPnP in the Unity.


Really ? That's crazy ! Somewhat flies in the face of the impression given on the product page:

"Network Streaming
As well as a stand-alone hard disk music player, the HDX is a music server that can provide up to six different streams of music simultaneously over a home network. Install an HDX and you’ve installed the heart of a multi-room audio system too. You don’t even need to install copious reels of new network wire either as network hardware that uses existing household mains cables can do the job."
Posted on: 29 April 2009 by Manu
You can ''stream'' from the HDX up to 6 different streams to as many StreamNet devices (NNP01 or 02) as you wish but not to the Unity.
Posted on: 01 May 2009 by fixedwheel
quote:
Originally posted by SC:

Really ? That's crazy ! Somewhat flies in the face of the impression given on the product page:

"Network Streaming
As well as a stand-alone hard disk music player, the HDX is a music server that can provide up to six different streams of music simultaneously over a home network. Install an HDX and you’ve installed the heart of a multi-room audio system too. You don’t even need to install copious reels of new network wire either as network hardware that uses existing household mains cables can do the job."


And that flies in the face of other advice on page E5, section 5.1.1 of the HDX manual http://www.naim-audio.com/down..._Reference_1_Eng.pdf

Which states
quote:
Ethernet-over-mains hardware may be used and provides a simple and convenient method of home network connection. However, depending on mains wiring factors specific to each home environment, the presence of network data on the mains supply may compromise overall system sound quality.


Cheers

John
Posted on: 01 May 2009 by David Dever
quote:
Originally posted by SC:
quote:
Originally posted by Manu:
Right now, you cannot stream from the HDX to the Unity. The HDX uses a proprietairy protocole (NaimNet/StreamNet) more powerfull than the standard UPnP in the Unity.


Really ? That's crazy ! Somewhat flies in the face of the impression given on the product page:

"Network Streaming
As well as a stand-alone hard disk music player, the HDX is a music server that can provide up to six different streams of music simultaneously over a home network. Install an HDX and you’ve installed the heart of a multi-room audio system too. You don’t even need to install copious reels of new network wire either as network hardware that uses existing household mains cables can do the job."


Looks as if two different blurbs made it into the final description...in the case of the original poster, standard Cat5e / Cat6 etc. will do just fine and is a better long-term investment in infrastructure (telephony, data, control, etc.)

I'm not a big fan of Ethernet-over-mains myself (for the reasons inferred above, that it affects the system performance when plugged in), as there are other wireless alternatives (single-client closed network with controlled access by MAC address) that seem to work quite well (without concern that the OTHER Ethernet-mains adapter needs to be removed).

Again, for the benefit of the original poster–there are some software things that must first be dealt with before the NaimUniti can access files from the HDX (among other methods), but your original assumptions of operation will eventually be possible.

Short-term, one easy way is to use a network-attached storage device that also has built-in UPnP streaming. This would then store music files for both HDX and NaimUniti.

With a forthcoming version of HDX software, one could rip to NAS as the default location.
Posted on: 02 May 2009 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by fixedwheel:
quote:
Originally posted by SC:

Really ? That's crazy ! Somewhat flies in the face of the impression given on the product page:

"Network Streaming
As well as a stand-alone hard disk music player, the HDX is a music server that can provide up to six different streams of music simultaneously over a home network. Install an HDX and you’ve installed the heart of a multi-room audio system too. You don’t even need to install copious reels of new network wire either as network hardware that uses existing household mains cables can do the job."


And that flies in the face of other advice on page E5, section 5.1.1 of the HDX manual http://www.naim-audio.com/down..._Reference_1_Eng.pdf

Which states
quote:
Ethernet-over-mains hardware may be used and provides a simple and convenient method of home network connection. However, depending on mains wiring factors specific to each home environment, the presence of network data on the mains supply may compromise overall system sound quality.


Cheers

John


OK - Looks like we're getting a bit confused here so I'll try to clarify.

The note about connecting the HDX to a network using Ethernet-Over-Mains devices applies *SOLELY* to when the HDX is being used as a source component in an existing hifi system and all the HDX needs to access the network for is to retrieve CD lookup data. Ethernet-Over-Mains devices should not be used when the HDX is being used as a streamed audio server in a NaimNet environment (NaimNet is not a user installed product and so this isn't explained in the manuals - the dealer / installer is responsible for ensuring the NaimNet infrastructure is correct).

Some people with better ears than I have tell me that the Ethernet-Over-Mains devices do have a detrimental effect on the audio quality of a system overall (after all they *ARE* effectively adding noise to the mains feed) but I'm obviously not attuned to this to be able to make comment however we do point out in the manual that if the Ethernet-Over-Mains devices are used then you may find that they do impact the ultimate fidelity of your system and so in that case it is recommended that they are unplugged when not required.

A hard wired ethernet connection is *ALWAYS* preferred to Ethernet-Over-Mains devices.

Cheers

Phil
Posted on: 02 May 2009 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by SC:

Really ? That's crazy ! Somewhat flies in the face of the impression given on the product page:

"Network Streaming
As well as a stand-alone hard disk music player, the HDX is a music server that can provide up to six different streams of music simultaneously over a home network. Install an HDX and you’ve installed the heart of a multi-room audio system too. You don’t even need to install copious reels of new network wire either as network hardware that uses existing household mains cables can do the job."


The HDX can currently be used to provide an additional six streams of audio for a NaimNet system - this is *NOT* the same as providing a uPNP server for use with the uniti.

NaimNet uses a much richer data format than that provided by uPNP, a format which enables the integration of lighting / heating / access control / security / IP cameras etc. into the common user interface.

I'm afraid that it looks like one of our enthusiatic marketing department people may have got a tad confused with the statement about "You don’t even need to install copious reels of new network wire either as network hardware that uses existing household mains cables can do the job." - those devices should only be used when the HDX is only using the network for CD lookups and *NOT* when being used as a NaimNet network source device. The synchronisation requirements on NaimNet are such that performance across such devices cannot be guaranteed. Lesser standards (such as uPNP which does not support room synchronisation) do generally work sucessfully across such devices but they are always subject to the condition of the intermediate wiring and throughput even using the 200mbit devices can very easily degrade to woefully inadequate rates...

Cheers

Phil
Posted on: 02 May 2009 by Adam Meredith
Good to see you about Phil.

Spring must be here and hibernation over - watch out for those pic-a-nic baskets, folks.

Ranger Smith
Posted on: 03 May 2009 by Phil Harris
Waddaya talkin' about Booboo?

Yogi
Posted on: 03 May 2009 by fixedwheel
Phil,

Thanks for taking the time to clarify some things for us all.

I think half the trouble is that quite a few of us are trying to join up different sets of dots, from different products, to get the ideal combination for themselves.

The NaimUniti is a great product for a lot of people, and so is the HDX. I, and possibly others, are looking for something in future product launches to give us others a bit more flexibilty, and exclude duplication with items we already have.

Maybe a NaimUniti, but without the amplifier section. Maybe just the UPnP player part as a standalone source.

I appreciate the complexity in getting the sync stuff in NaimNet, seeing as to a degree it goes against TCP/IP over EtherNet, which doesn't really care about the timing as it isn't really needed for computer comms.

I think that there are interesting times ahead.

Thanks for taking time out of your holiday weekend to put us straight.

John
Posted on: 03 May 2009 by Klout10
Phil,

First of all, thank you for your time and for all explanations.

Is there a possibility that some WLAN functionality will be added to the HDX in the (near) future? This could make life a bit easier for some of us...

Regards,
Michel
Posted on: 03 May 2009 by Phil Harris
quote:
Originally posted by Klout10:
Phil,

First of all, thank you for your time and for all explanations.


No problem - I don't get onto the forums very often I'm afraid ...

quote:
Originally posted by Klout10:
Is there a possibility that some WLAN functionality will be added to the HDX in the (near) future? This could make life a bit easier for some of us...

Regards,
Michel


There isn't I'm afraid - when we were designing the HDX we did look at the possibility of including wireless functionality into it but it wasn't practical from a number of perspectives - not least that it isn't the best idea to put a radio transmitter into such close proximity to the sensitive bits of some of our best sounding audio components.

The easiest way to get an HDX onto a wireless network is to use something like a "Gaming Adapter" which is basically a wired to wireless bridge. You'd configure that with your PC and then plug it into the HDX using an ethernet cable. The adapter can them be located away from the hifi stack to minimise any possible degrading interference...

Cheers

Phil
Posted on: 03 May 2009 by garyi
Anyone looking at plus 400 cds should consider a NAS anyway, turn on upnp and THERE is your server for all things music. HDX should be considered a client.

I understand some new software will allow ripping to nas, so there is your solution all round.

Assuming a uniti can read hdx rip.
Posted on: 29 August 2009 by Et in Arcadia
As the OP some months ago now; it's decision time and I'm still unsure which approach to take, mainly becuase the HDX does not yet have the ability to rip to external storage. As the electricians will be in next week to wire the new kitchen I need to tell them what to do.

Assuming that I am going the Naimnet/Netstreams route, based on the advice given above, I propose to tell them to install a standard ethernet network socket into which I will plug the "non-blocking switch" as specified by David (above).

Therefrom, questions arise:
1. Do I also need to have them extend the network cabling to accommodate a touch panel display in a convenient on-wall location?

Reading the HDX and Naimnet literature it says any device on the network, and the data streams,can be controlled from the HDX front panel, or via the borowser interface. However I can't find any reference to how to access this functionality.

2. Re the non-blocking switch; must it be the Netstreams version or will any non-blocking switch do the job. I already use Netgear GS605s on the network and the spec say they are non-blocking.

3. Given the above, will I be able to configure the setup as I want it or does this require specialist SW or expertise available only to custom installers? If so I have a problem as I doubt any custom installer would be interested in a small job like this.
Posted on: 29 August 2009 by BernardG
To Et in Arcadia

FYI
I have my HDX connected via Ethernet cable to an NNP02 in the Kitchen. I also have a wireless network in the house and use an IPod Touch with an Apple App from Ilinx to control the NNP02.

Dare I say it, the ILinx App is much more intuitive to use than the browser interface from Naim/DigiLinx.

The HDX / NNP02 combination works very well now that I have got to grips with the Naimnet concept.


Bernard
Posted on: 29 August 2009 by BernardG
quote:
Posted Sat 29 August 2009 17:42 Hide Post
As the OP some months ago now; it's decision time and I'm still unsure which approach to take, mainly becuase the HDX does not yet have the ability to rip to external storage. As the electricians will be in next week to wire the new kitchen I need to tell them what to do.

Assuming that I am going the Naimnet/Netstreams route, based on the advice given above, I propose to tell them to install a standard ethernet network socket into which I will plug the "non-blocking switch" as specified by David (above).

Therefrom, questions arise:
1. Do I also need to have them extend the network cabling to accommodate a touch panel display in a convenient on-wall location?

Reading the HDX and Naimnet literature it says any device on the network, and the data streams,can be controlled from the HDX front panel, or via the borowser interface. However I can't find any reference to how to access this functionality.

2. Re the non-blocking switch; must it be the Netstreams version or will any non-blocking switch do the job. I already use Netgear GS605s on the network and the spec say they are non-blocking.

3. Given the above, will I be able to configure the setup as I want it or does this require specialist SW or expertise available only to custom installers? If so I have a problem as I doubt any custom installer would be interested in a small job like this.


1)You don't have to, but there are a number of DigiLinx display panel options.

2) You can't as far as I'm aware control the NNP02 box from the HDX. (Only select a playlist or search for a specific album/ artist / genre etc.
3) Any Ethernet switch will do.

4) It does require specific software and expertise to install. But once done provided the installer takes time to explain to you how it works then everything should be fine.

Just one other bit of advice. If you have a partner / wife make sure that they are also fully capable of using the display panel.
Posted on: 30 August 2009 by Chris Murphy
Hi,

1. There are a number of control options. iPod/iPhone (with iLinx app), local PC (laptop on the kitchen bench) or digilinx touchscreen. Think about how you will live/use the kitchen. A fixed device may be the best option.

2. The HDX display can be toggled between local output control and control of a Digilinx/Naimnet system. In which case, yes the HDX can control the NNP02 in the kitchen.

3.To avoid issues you are best to use a Netstreams switch or one recommended by them. The amount of network traffic generally swamps ordinary switches.

4. If you can wire, do so. Wireless is cool but not so if there is unwanted interference. It can be flakey. A wired connection is best practice.

Once you understand what you have and how to use it, the Naimnet system is powerful and simple to use.

As always with this, a dealer will be invaluable.

Chris
Posted on: 30 August 2009 by Arcadian
Chris, you say that
quote:
The HDX display can be toggled between local output control and control of a Digilinx/Naimnet system. In which case, yes the HDX can control the NNP02 in the kitchen
. How is that toggling achieved? I've read through the manaul and can't see any reference to it.
Posted on: 30 August 2009 by Et in Arcadia
Chris, you say that

quote:
The HDX display can be toggled between local output control and control of a Digilinx/Naimnet system. In which case, yes the HDX can control the NNP02 in the kitchen


How is that toggling achieved? I've read through the manaul and can't see any reference to it.

[apologies for duplicate post; I switched machines and LiveCloud found an ID I thought was lost]
Posted on: 30 August 2009 by Et in Arcadia
BernardG, did you have any problem finding an installer who was willing to take on a small job? Or is your kitchen connection only part of a whole-house setup?
Posted on: 30 August 2009 by BernardG
No I have a very good dealer who seems to be happy to work with me.
Please feel free to email me and I will pass on his details to you.
email: bernard@garrett.co.uk

I also have an NNP01 in my Office.
Best Wishes

Bernard
Posted on: 30 August 2009 by David Dever
quote:
The question is, therefore, on the assumption that I put a Uniti in the kitchen, what HW and SW do I need in between the two in order to access the music on the HDX and control the data stream.


With the next version of HDX software, this should now be possible–and it works very well, including situations where one can properly set up a robust wireless network (the NaimUniti features a built-in Wi-Fi receiver).

No additional software is required, though you can use (if you have an iPod touch or iPhone) the PlugPlayer app to control streaming to the NaimUniti, among other options.

However–you will not be able to synchronize zones together, as you would with two or more NaimNet room amps. This is a fundamental advantage of the StreamNet technology used by NaimNet for multicast network transmission–and this excludes all of the whole-house automation and integration benefits of NaimNet's underlying technology.
Posted on: 30 August 2009 by Chris Murphy
The HDX needs to be configured in a Naimnet/Netstreeams system for the toggle option to be availble.

Cheers,

Chris.