Bernstein and Mahler

It's a shame the set doesn't include the Berlin 9 (well worth having, though). The set isn't really a rerelease (it's exactly the same as the existing one, just the from of the packaging changed slightly to match the other bernstein collectors editions). Still, well worth having.

I can't wait for the dvds (october 14th, I think).

According to the DG website the Abbado 4 should be out this month, but my local record shop told my the other day it was november

Other notable releases include the Oramo and the CBSO in Mahler 5 (I'd be interested to hear anyone's views, since I've found them a winning combination in the concert hall). Also, I recently picked up the Chailly/Concertgebouw cycle in a bargin box. So far I've only listened to 1 and 2 but they've been excellent so far (can't go too far wrong with petra lang).

All in all, the Mahler is coming as thick and fast as ever.



regards,

Tam

Tam

I hope that the new Bernstein CDs will come in at a lower price-point?

I've never heard his BPO Ninth, as I refuse to pay for Mahler's Ninth on two full-priced CDs. Is the timing such that it could be released on just one (probably not, as Lennie can wallow in his Mahler!)? Alternatively, I'll wait until DGG do the decent thing (as they have done with Karajan's remarkable live Ninth), by releasing a mid-price set. (Or couple it with, say, his Beethoven Fifth from his Amnesty Concert in Munich.)

Oh dear, is my Scottishness coming to the fore here?

I haven't heard any of Abbado's new Berlin PO Mahler cycle, but I do have the Lucerne Second. Presumably that won't be re-recorded in Berlin as well?

Graham

True, they were rather overpriced before (I picked them up on the cheap through Britannia). If they're in line with the other collectors editions it will probably be around £70 for the set.

You're right about the price of the BPO nine, it's insanely expensive (though I've seen it on sale every now and again). It's about 83 mins so ought to be possible to get it on one disc these days. I think the reason they charge what they do is that it's the only time he conducted the BPO and so if, like me, you're a Bernstein fan, it has particular value for it's unique status, so they are able to take me for a ride.

I too wish they'd stick the Amnesty 5th back in the catalogue. They're collectors edition is crying out for some of his other vienese stuff (like his fideleo or mozart symphonies).

As to Abbado's new BPO stuff, it's generally excellent. The 7th is among the best on record (highly recommended), the 9 is very fine too (not least because it is on one disc). I'm less crazy about the 3, but then there are precious few 3s that I like. The recent 6 was okay, but I prefer both the wonderful Jansons/LSO live version (stunning value for money - can't wait for him to do some mahler with the concergebouw) and the Mackerras one that was on BBC music magazine a few months back. By my reckoning, with the 4th he'll have now recorded them all in Berlin with the exception of number 2, though, as you suggest, I think it is unlikely he'll redo that one (though he would do well to redo number 1, since the amount of coughing in the audience is very annoying).


regards,

Tam

Would dearly love to hear the Bernstein Das Lied with Fischer-Dieskau in the alto songs.

The Abbado BPO Mahler is quite a thrill, and the Mackerras/BBC PO 6th was quite a thrill. A strong case for the third hammer blow indeed!

EW

Personally I'm not blown away by the Bernstein Fischer-Dieskau das lied, for my money there's no substitute for Ferrier/Walter.


regards,

Tam

Tam/Earwicker

The 1966 Bernstein with King/DF-D is one of my favourites. It's also a quite spectacular recording, with John Culshaw at the helm. The VPO in full cry during the 1960s were a hell of an orchestra!

Graham

Someone mentioned the Chailly decca set.... the third on there is superb, the best I've heard, though I have heard tell that Abbado's mezzo (can't remember who)on the live BPO is way better than Petra Lang. Its also a fantastic recording.

On the other hand... the recent ninth from Chailly is a let-down, sounds slow and uncommitted. Tilson Thomas/SFO is pretty good though.

The Abbado mezzo is good. However, I think Petra Lang is fantastic. Sadly the micing does not always do her justice. On Chailly's 2 she's too quiet and I remember her from last years Edinburgh festival in a stunning Bluebeard's castle (Volkov/BBC Scottish) where she was a little swamped by the orchestra.

Graham, it has been a while since I listened to the Bernstein Das Lied. Perhaps I should give it another go.


regards,

Tam

Already having the CBS cycle and the final DG cycle, I'm wondering, do I need the 70s cycle on DVD? Shouldn't the other two be enough?

Todd,

I'm also in a similar position, having both the cycles you mention. However, I'll be getting the dvds for a couple of reasons. First, I'm a bit of a Bernstein fan, and since I never saw him live, it would be fascinating to have him on dvd. Similarly I want a dvd of mahler 8, having never seen that either. That said, if the price is too steep I may not bother. I've previously been tempted by some of Abbado's Mahler on dvd, but I can't really justify the prices.


regards,

Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
I prefer both the wonderful Jansons/LSO live version (stunning value for money - can't wait for him to do some mahler with the concergebouw)

What is the sound like on this? I've been very disappointed with some of the LSO Live recording quality.

Alan,

That is a valid point, and some recent LSO live recordings have been poor (or even terrible). The Rostropovich Shoshtakovich 5 was diabolical and should really not have been released. Of course, some of this is down to the problems of the of the barbican. That said many of the recordings have been excellent.

The Jansons Mahler is a fine disc, and I have no problems with the recording. There's a good balance with the timpani in the first movement (which is very clear - always important for me). The Shostakovich 11 is also a very fine disc. Haitink's recent Brahms less so. I think some of this may be due to their move to SACD technology, but I could be mistaken.

Which discs have you had problems with (I have most of the catalogue)?



regards,

Tam

Re LSO live: The Colin Davis Elgar set, and his Bruckner 9th - which I find a very worthwhile performance despite the flat scrawny sound.

I've got that Shostakovich 11 too, and TBH I simply can't understand what the fuss about it is... not only is the sound flat and dull, I find the performance pretty much the same too.

Haven't heard the Bruckner.

I liked the Shostakovich, but then it is the only recording of that work I've ever heard, so I'm perhaps not that well placed to judge it.


regards,

Tam

There was a Shostakovich 11 with Stokowski conducting the Houston Symphony, recorded in late 1950's (when the music was still brand new)in superbly vivid early stereo.... it was on EMI but possibly not available now. If you see it, buy it. Its probably full of Stokowski alterations to the score, but it works.

To get htis thread back on track - what do people reckon on Bernstein's VPO Mahler 6 on DG?

Its superb in many ways, particularly the first two movements which have real swing and energy, but the Andante is played like an intermezzo with little depth, and the finale (for me) loses the narrative and becomes a succession of big bangs.

If I was to listen to this symphony all the way, i'd probably listen to bernstien for the first two movements, then maybe Karajan for last two.

alan

I haven't heard Bernstein's DG recording of Mahler's Sixth - although I feel (fear?) that this will change towards the end of next month.

I do have his NYPO recording on Sony from the 60s. Quite fast all the way through and a remarkable performance: 77m 57s in total. I imagine that the DGG will have an extra 5m, at least.

I suspect that, for the ultimate Bernstein Mahler, one would have to mix and match but that, if you had the Sony and DGG cycles, plus the DVDs and, of course, the Decca Das Lied von der Erde one-off from '66 (possibly the best RECORDING I've come across from Lennie), you'd be able to claim that you had at least one fairly good recording of each piece of Mahler's output. But you might have to buy that bloody expensive Berlin Ninth as well!

Graham

The Lenny/VPO recording is still pretty quick - the first movement starts noticeably faster than any other version I have heard - Karajan, Abbado, Tilson Thomas etc. But still manages to be nearly 87 mins overall.

But he was almost ten minutes faster in New York! Cutting out repeats, or just less fat on the bone?

Graham

It's ages since I gave the DG 6th a spin. Might try and have a listen tomorrow.

I agree that you can't get an entirely satisfactory Mahler cycle either in new york or on DG and have to mix and match. Of course, even then you're stuck without a wholly satisfactory 8th (Bernstein died prior to rerecording it for DG and the one they found, dating from a 1970s live recording isn't especially fine).

The ones that really stand out for me on the DG set are the 1st and the 9th.


regards,

Tam

Surely the Fifth as well? Haven't yet heard the Ninth, but have heard that it's VERY slow.

G

The 9th is very slow.

I'm not mad keen on the 5th from the DG cycle (I had a good long listen to it a few months back after it featured as Gramophone's 'classic' recording and I'm bound to say I'm not at all sure what the fuss is about). That said, I much prefer it to the new york 5th (which is pretty poor). On the whole, though, I prefer Rattle's 5th or Mackerras with the RLPO, Haikink's is not too bad and I'm looking forward to getting to Chailly's (which I've heard good things about).

He also does well with the unfinished 10th and Das Knaber Wunderhorn (if I've even come close to spelling that right).


In new york 3 and 7 are the two that really stand out for me. The ny set is also worth having for it's extras (the adagio from the 5th played at Robert Kennedy's funeral and an additional recording of part 1 of the 8th symphony, which is significantly better than the full recording).


regards,

Tam

Rattle's 5th!!!! I found it absolutely dire. Well there you go.

I think the DG Bernstein 5th is pretty good, but lots of good ones out there - Zander/Philharmonia and also just obtained Nott/Bamberg on SACD, both very good.
I don't know many of Bernstein's NY Phil Mahler, only the 1st and 3rd. I haven't played the third since I got Chailly's, but the first is good, maybe not as high power as the DG remake though.

I suppose I have a soft spot for the rattle 5th (partly because it was one of my first mahler records - showing my youth here). I think the problems, such as it has them, are that he lets too much go in the first two movements (which are absolutely stunning) and the rest becomes something of an anticlimax.

As I may have said above, I'm curious to know what Oramo and the CBSO are like.

I refuse to buy anything by Nott, petty I know, but after the Schubert 8th he did in the closing concert of the Edinburgh festival I have something of a grudge. Quite how he managed to play the second movement quicker than the first (both were still far too slow) is beyond me.

Out of interest, have you got the Haitink 3 (I think it's stunning - but our views on good mahler may be a little divergent ). My problem with 3 tends to be that it's very easily an anticlimax and if the conductor isn't careful the 5th movement is stunning and the 6th is then a bit of a letdown.



regards,

Tam

Have just listened to the Chailly 3 and it certainly has a lot going for it. But, for me at least, Haitink remains the top recording. It's not that Chailly doesn't get some wonderful playing, he does, however it suffers from a number of the same problems as his Mahler 2, most glaring the inadequate micing of Petra Lang (but also of the off stage horn in the 3rd movement - mind you, I suspect nothing on disc will capture the brilliance of Runnicles' recent Edinburgh festival performance in that regard). It lacks quite the cohesion that Haitink manages and the choir in the 5th movement lacks some of the sparkle. It's certainly a good disc, but there are better (IMO, anyway).


regards,

Tam