Bernstein and Mahler

Out of interest, does anyone actually know when the Bernstein Mahler (on DVD) is actually out. The DG website seems pretty useless in this regard (apparently Abbado's mahler 4 is out already, but I'm damned if I can find it anywhere - ditto the other Bernstein collectors releases on CD).


regards,

Tam

Well, I picked up my DVD set of the symphonies the other day (and will probably make a proper start on them over the weekend). For what it's worth though, a first glance doesn't seem all that promising. The camera never seems to be where my eye wants to be (and, indeed, is almost all the time focused on Bernstein and gives almost no 'wide' shots of the entire orchestra, which is the kind of thing I'd like to see most of the time); most bizarrely of all, during the second symphony, they keep giving you shots of the roof of Ely cathedral: if I wanted to see that again I'd go there! Also, sound quality is a little disappointing, though that may very well have more to do with my dvd player.

A fuller report will follow when I've been able to watch some of them in their entirety.


regards,

Tam

I don't have that DVD but as a general concept I am a bit bothered by visuals of filming an orchestra, or opera for that matter. I'd much rather have the CD with my focus on the music rather than some transition crazy editor/director. Once for a performance is OK but to see something ove and over would irritate me. Even if it is Lenny or Abbado.

I happen to have Mahler's 3rd on vinyl with Vienna Phil and Jessey Norman, it's quite wonderful tho I don't have your backgrounds in music. I just heard Nott conduct the LA Phil in the 4th, don't remember the solosist's name, but it was really stunning. I was sitting in back of the orchestra and when the drums came in at the end it was a real startling moment.

On CDs I have Rattle BPO doing the 5th and Lenny's 1st with NY Phil. Mahler is such a good evening's selection. very engaging.

glenn

I agree to some extent. I do find it a little tricky to sit down and watch concert dvds (much more difficult than cds). The main reason I bought the set was that I'm a big fan of Bernstein (and Mahler) but never got to see the great man live.

I too have the Rattle 5 on cd and like it very much. If it has a drawback though, it is that he doesn't quite hold enough back in the first two movements (which are stunning), thus leaving the end ever so slightly anti-climactic. You should check out Lenny's DG 1st with the Concertgebouw orchestra: stunning.

Personally I'm not at all a fan of Nott. Indeed, perhaps shamefully, he is the only musician I have ever booed. But the pace at which he conducted that Schubert 8, frankly he deserved to be lynched (and quite why he felt the second movement should be faster than the first I don't know!). In fairness to him, it was the last in a 5 concert series with the Bamberg orchestra at last year's edinburgh festival and I think they were perhaps a little fatigued and suffering from over-exposure (a terrible piece of programming which made the last week overly weak and probably stemmed from a shortage of cash). Still, as a conductor I don't think he quite sees enough of the 'big' picture of a work.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I wouldn't say I had much of a background in music, just too many cds

regards,

Tam

The new Abbabo Mahler Fourth is released in the UK on Monday. They played an extract from the final movement on Radio 3's CD Review this morning.

I really didn't enjoy Renee Fleming's contribution much: far too sophisticated, polished singing, to my ears.

I don't think that anyone has bettered Judith Raskin for Szell, now (unbelievably) 40 years old, although I did enjoy Lisa Della Casa on Reiner's recording of similar age (but which I got earlier this year).

Graham

I heard that too. I didn't mind Fleming's singing, though you're quite right to suggest that Szell's account probably remains the 'gold standard'. That said, on my way through the Sinopoli Philarmonia cycle recently, I very much enjoyed number 4, Edita Gruberova singing.

On a related note, I was in my local cd shop this afternoon and they were playing the new Fischer recording with a Budapest orchestra of the 6th symphony (I heard the end of the first movement and the beginning of the andante) and it sounded very promising. I wonder if anyone has the disc and could comment on how it sounds as a whole?


regards, Tam

I took the plunge and ordered the three Bernstein Mahler DG boxes, the third of which arrived yesterday. I haven't listened to any of the music yet, as I'd like to hear it in order of composition, but it looks like a bit of a dog's breakfast in terms of performances.

The first two discs have the Adagio from the Tenth (taken from the soundtrack to a 1974 film) and the tapes of his 1975 Vienna Eighth. The booklet comes clean about Bernstein dying just before he was scheduled to record the Eighth "properly" with the NYPO, but exhorts us to enjoy the foot-stamping, etc, of the long forgotten Vienna taping. I'm preparing myself to be greatly underwhelmed, though.

Next up, much to my surprise, on the third disc is the 1966 Decca taping of Das Lied Von Der Erde. But I already have this as a single Decca Legends CD, as I'm sure will be the case with so many other admirers of Bernstein. I'm not sure why it's been included in this series as well.

The last two discs have the Amsterdam Ninth, with no filler. But at least I'm expecting a great performance.

So I feel that I've got the least essential box first. Indeed, as I've long had Bernstein's CBS NYPO Ninth, and recently snapped up his superb Berlin PO recording for much less than the suggested full price, I might have passed on this box completely.

That said, I'm greatly looking forward to the first two boxes.

Graham

Well, I have now finished the Bernstein Mahler DVD cycle (well, apart from the extras, such as some rehearsals and some introductions by Bernstein himself) so I thought I'd revive the thread and post some of my thoughts.

Before I talk about each of the symphonies in turn, I will just mention some general points. First up, in a number of the readings I found sound to be a little harsh and, to be honest, it seemed a little random as to which symphonies suffered from this, so it may simply be that I didn't notice it in the more engaging readings. Secondly, as the box suggests, this is Bernstein doing Mahler, and that is what you get: the focus is very much on him. This makes for fascinating viewing, particularly if, like me, you never got to see the great man live. My point is this: don't expect lots of wide shots of the orchestra. That said, most of the time when we get to see the orchestra (or rather bits of it), it almost always tends to be where the ear tells you you ought to be looking.

The audiences are very well behaved (or their noise has been successfully eliminated). And it is also interesting to note that, at the time these were filmed, the VPO was a strictly all male affair, impressively even down to the harpists (which, given the concerts I've attended, strikes me as unusual - I don't recall ever having seen a male harpist).

One last thing. It's never quite clear if the symphonies were captured in one take or not. Judging by the fact that the screen always seems to fade to black between movements I suspect not. I suppose one could check by careful examination of the audiences, but I cannot be bothered. In the end, it doesn't really matter whether they were made up of one performance or several.

Symphony No.1 (VPO): A good solid performance, though nothing unduly remarkable. Probably a little better than his NY reading, but the later Concergebouw version in the DG CD cycle is far superior.

Symphony No.2: This is an excellent performance, and one of the highlights of the set. It features Bernstein with the LSO and the Edinburgh Festival Chorus (back when they had a decent number of men), following on from a successful appearance at the previous year's festival. The fact that it's recorded in Ely cathedral lends to the atmosphere. Sadly, that also means that the director feels the need to spend an excessive amount of time showing you the ceiling when my eyes would rather be anywhere else. The soloists are excellent, especially Janet Baker, who must surely be a first choice for this work and Sheila Armstrong is good as the soprano. In my view, this is Bernstein's finest reading of the work.

Symphony No.3 (VPO and Christa Ludwig). I suppose I should start this one with a caveat: I have always struggled a little with number 3, so my views on this one ought to be taken with a pinch of salt, especially since I have seen this performance highly praised elsewhere. That said, this is one of those performances where, as mentioned above, I found the sound unduly harsh (something, that, at the time these were made, oughtn't to be an issue). For what ever reason, the performance didn't really hold me. I found Ludwig insufficiently haunting in the 4th movement and I found the 5th lacking in joy. I also found the effect of the posthorn superimposed over the orchestra a little silly. Bernstein is better served in new york. However, as suggested at the start, I'm a tough customer to please as far as the 3rd is concerned and only Haitink and the Concertgebouw really do it for me.

Symphony No.4 (VPO and Edith Mathis): I suppose I should attach similar reservations to this one as I did 3. While there was nothing much wrong with this reading, it also failed to grip me, and sound quality was again an issue. The pace of the finale was a little quick for my liking and Mathis' voice was insufficiently beautiful. I don't think any of Bernstein's readings of this symphony quite do it for me though.

Symphony No.5 (VPO): I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that this is Bernstein's finest account of this work. Yes, Graham, finer even that your beloved DG cd account (also with the VPO). Personally, I find there to be a little too much of Bernstein in his later account and this reading sits wonderfully between that and his poor NY reading. The pacing just works and the playing is excellent throughout.

Symphony No.6 (VPO): And suddenly Bernstein has a beard (though that has little bearing on the performance). Personally, I struggle with the 6th when, as here, the scherzo is placed before the andante. None the less, there is nothing much wrong with this reading, but it wouldn't be anywhere near my list of 6ths to take to my desert island. As to how it compares to Bernstein's other readings of the work, I'm afraid I don't really know them well enough to compare.

Symphony No.7 (VPO): This is a pretty disappointing reading, and is in no way competitive with his earlier NY reading. It somewhat lacks focus and, in the middle movements, edgyness. The finale lacks punch. I don't know his DG NY reading well enough to comment on that.

Symphony No.8 (VPO): Again, I think this is probably Bernstein's finest 8th (though other accounts are much better). However, the DVD does do a good job of capturing the scale of the event (with his trumpets up with the audience in the upper circle) and the sight of him kicking things off with the baton clasped in both hands is a sight to see. His CBS 8th, with the LSO, suffered from poor sound (I think the 8th, which might have been invented to show off the fidelity of orchestration, requires a good recording). It trounces the DG cd account, from a live performance in Salzburg (recorded at about the same time with a similar cast). So, a good reading, but I think Bernstein yields to the likes of Solti and Sinopoli and even, dare I say it, Rattle, in this work.

Das Lied von der Erde (Israel Philharmonic, Christa Ludwig, Rene Kollo): This is a very fine reading. Not, in my view, up there with the likes of Haitink/Baker/King or Walter/Ferrier but fine none the less. I don't know the VPO recording well enough to say how it compares to that - I remember being a little disappointed by it, but I didn't know Das Lied so well then, so that may well have coloured it.

Symphony No.9 (VPO): This is outstanding. Arguably the outstanding performance on the disc. In the wrong hands, Mahler 9 can lurch from one two minute segment to the next but, in my view, Bernstein gets the flow perfectly and every bar is riveting. The focus and the quality of the playing is just wonderful. For my money, this hands down beats the later Concertgebouw account, which is a little long for my liking and sometimes gets a little lost. I haven't listened to the NY account lately, so can't compare that. However, so fine was this reading that it prompted me to go back and hear the famous BPO version but I find I prefer this one. Indeed, it's possibly my favourite ninth on disc.

Symphony No.10, Adagio (VPO): I don't find this a frightfully compelling account and not as good as his NY version. However, given everything Bernstein said about the 9th, I feel he was never really at home with the 10th; he always refused to conduct the Cooke edition, but I think he isn't even comfortable with the adagio, since he feels Mahler already said goodbye with the ninth. Neither Bernstein account can, for my money, compete with the likes of Sinopoli.

So, in summary, there are some great readings here (2, 5 and 9) a number of good solid accounts and only one or two I found poor. It offers a great insight into Bernstein's conducting and approach to Mahler (more so than either of the CD cycles will give you). In terms of sheer bang for buck, the NY cycle is a very good bet. However, I wouldn't want to be without either cycle and, perhaps inevitably none is perfect. Still, given I've seen this set for around £60 (and given that an individual disc of Abbado doing the 9th will cost you somewhere between a quarter and a third of that), I think it's well worth it (all the more so for me because I haven't yet seen either 8 or Das Lied live, and I hadn't seen 9 done very well).

regards, Tam

Hi Tam,

Great post, but you have not persuaded me to buy that set yet! I recently discovered Das Lied by Walter with Mildred Miller and the NYPO. Wow. It finally eclipses the Haitink/Baker/King version that I have enjoyed for nearly 25 years now.
Keep up the thread. Mahler recordings are a wonderful voyage of discovery.

David

David,

That Das Lied is very fine, though I urge to look for the Walter one with Kathleen Ferrier which is even finer.

As to the Bernstein set, I was thinking today that if only all his recordings were taken (DG, CBS and these video ones) and the finest taken, then you would probably end up with a first choice symphony cycle. Sadly, each cycle on its own is not without its flaws.

regards, Tam

Tam

Thanks for a great post. The definitive Bernstein Mahler would not be easy to put together (and I'm just going off LPs and CDs.) But, absent the Eighth, I think that I could just about do it!

Graham

Graham,

Out of interest, did you get the first two DG Mahler boxes, if so, how did you find them? I'm particularly fond of the Concertgebouw 1st symphony.

regards, Tam

Tam

Yes, they're great. I don't think that the boy soprano "works" in the last movement of the Fourth but, otherwise, a superb achievement.

It's a great shame that Lennie didn't live to record the Eighth in New York, but Solti is a (surprisingly) good substitute.

I think that it's a mistake, though, that DG require you to buy the song cycles.

Graham

Graham,

Totally agree about the boy soprano - sounds all wrong. Mind you, I don't really get on too well with any other 4th than the Cleveland/Szell.

I agree, would have loved to hear the new New York 8th.

Are you saying that the songs shouldn't be on the set at all? Personally I quite like having them, for completeness, though I think they are generally better served elsewhere. Des Knaben Wunderhorn is rather good from that set though.

regards, Tam

Tam

I don't suppose that the Szell Fourth will ever be surpassed.

I'd rather that the DG Bernstein CD set didn't have the songs. I don't think that they approach LB's readings of the symphonies in quality and, without checking, I think that each box could have been reduced by one CD. So more buyers, I think!

And the Berlin Ninth is, in my opinion, far superior to what he achieved in Amsterdam a decade on. Could they not have taken this into account?

Graham

Graham,

I take the point about the songs, though, being a Bernstein fanatic, I'm glad to have them.

I agree about the RCO ninth, and the BPO account, fascinating as it is would surely have been a better choice: I can't imagine that, priced as a double album (which I think is a little cheeky), they sell that many.

However, as I suggested above, I think the DVD VPO ninth is finer still. Then again, it's been a little while since I had a proper listen to the Berlin 9th, something for tomorrow perhaps.

I had high hopes for both the Abbado and Harding fourths, but neither came close. However, I think that if Mackerras were to record it with, say the Philharmonia and Urmana then that might just do it.

regards, Tam