Naim DAC with external PS

quote:

In which case what difference can a better power-supply for the HDX make?

likesmusic, because quality of power supply is VERY important to keep the clock accurate.
As far as I know both XPS and 555PS not only supply the output gain stage of Naim CDPs and HDX DAC and on-coming Naim DAC but also feed the clock with refined linear power which together result in super-fine clocking = low jitter.
This is not the case for HiCap feeding CD5X -- in this case external PS only feeds the output gain stage and has no effect on CD5X jitter.
This is why XPS and CD555 have a double effect over CDX2 or HDX -- decrease jitter (better than built-in supply) and improve linearity and grip of the output gain stage (better than HiCap).

When clock is super-fine then bits are not delayed or overrun anymore and come to the converter at 11:00 as scheduled.
In this case jitter is super-low and you don't even need a re-clocking or PLL -- bitstream will flow to the converter without messing up the bits. You actually don't need even upsampling if your converter support native conversion -- this may give you even better results -- more analogue sound.

likesmusic, I want to mention again -- I don't know if we need 555PS on HDX to pace the jitter at suitable level so that DAC/555PS will handle it completely. It's quite possibly that built-in CDX2-2 and HDX S/PDIF is low jitter enough to be completely resolved by DAC/555PS because Naim DAC is re-clocking. I will be able to answer this question soon -- once I can have my hands over DAC for 2-3 hours.

AMA - I understand that a better power supply for the HDX can make the HDX better on its own, but I will be surprised if it makes a difference when the HDX is fed into a Naim DAC.

Have just noticed at the newsagents that there is a review and a few measurements of the DAC in the latest issue of HiFi World.

quote:

but I will be surprised if it makes a difference when the HDX is fed into a Naim DAC.

It's highly probable. We shall see.

Actually this could have been tested long time ago if someone would have appeared an interest to feed HDX with/without XPS into a Lavry and see if resolution increased.

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:

quote:

but I will be surprised if it makes a difference when the HDX is fed into a Naim DAC.

It's highly probable. We shall see.

Actually this could have been tested long time ago if someone would have appeared an interest to feed HDX with/without XPS into a Lavry and see if resolution increased.

We did that with a 552/500 system. The HDX sounded better through a DA10 than with it's own DAC. That's why I'm not at all surprised that the new DAC is reckoned to be an improvement. I'm looking forward to seeing(hearing) how much better it is.

Joe

we've done it a number of times with various DACs. The supply doesn't help the HDX dig out. The dig out still functions without the burndy or jumper in place. This was done and tested with other DACs long before the Naim DAC. DD and others can verify. My overall results didn't match Joes but I tend to use the HDX with supply on it's own. Been a bit long to remember all the itterations.

quote:

We did that with a 552/500 system. The HDX sounded better through a DA10 than with it's own DAC. That's why I'm not at all surprised that the new DAC is reckoned to be an improvement. I'm looking forward to seeing(hearing) how much better it is.

Joe

Joe, did you compare HDX>Lavry against HDX/XPS>Lavry?
JS suggests that XPS has not impact on HDX S/PDIF...

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:

quote:

We did that with a 552/500 system. The HDX sounded better through a DA10 than with it's own DAC. That's why I'm not at all surprised that the new DAC is reckoned to be an improvement. I'm looking forward to seeing(hearing) how much better it is.

Joe

Joe, did you compare HDX>Lavry against HDX/XPS>Lavry?
JS suggests that XPS has not impact on HDX S/PDIF...

Not an XPS, but one of the 555PS that was on the CD555 (he had two). I agree with JS, it made no difference to the dig out.

Joe

I actually (extremely slightly) prefer it without.

quote:

I actually (extremely slightly) prefer it without.

This is effect of "excitement" you get on the possible savings

quote:

Not an XPS, but one of the 555PS that was on the CD555 (he had two). I agree with JS, it made no difference to the dig out.

Joe

Which means that bare HDX jitter at the very least is low enough to be completely rejected by re-clocking DAC. Good news.

Any idea if the same holds true for NS01?
Can we use NS01 as reference digital source feeding reclocking DAC?
I personally don't need HDX's built-in DAC, built-in HDD and built-in ripping machine.

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:

quote:

I actually (extremely slightly) prefer it without.

This is effect of "excitement" you get on the possible savings

The new path would be DAC before PS but those already with PSs will be delighted when moving them over to the DAC.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AMA:

the sound of Klimax DS is more open, spacious, more microdetails, better imaging than bare HDX-- it looks like much better jitter handling. It's difficult to explain by that Linn has elaborated super-mathematics or HDX is using detrimental digital filters.

AMA

It's easy to explain - you like the sound of the Linn more. I would guess the sonic differences have less to do with jitter and more to do with the voicing of the analogue output stage, but what matters is what your ears tell you. I find the HDX has better timing (so I doubt it is jitter causing the major sonic differences)and takes me farther into the music. IMO the Linn does better HiFI and the Naim better music.

Cheers

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
[Any idea if the same holds true for NS01?
Can we use NS01 as reference digital source feeding reclocking DAC?
I personally don't need HDX's built-in DAC, built-in HDD and built-in ripping machine.

AMA

A HDX is the same basic machine as a NS01, the HDX has an upgraded DAC and the display. The NS01 will sound the same when used to feed the external DAC. Unfortunately (for some) they both have the ripping and storage functions. I imagine Naim will bring out a simpler streamer at some point but when and what who knows.

Bob

Bob

quote:

It's easy to explain - you like the sound of the Linn more. I would guess the sonic differences have less to do with jitter and more to do with the voicing of the analogue output stage, but what matters is what your ears tell you. I find the HDX has better timing (so I doubt it is jitter causing the major sonic differences)and takes me farther into the music. IMO the Linn does better HiFI and the Naim better music.

Cheers

Bob

Bob, I have listened for all Linn range including top Klimax systems, sources, preamps, active speakers.
I remember a day when I auditioned Akurate DS and then bought a cheaper CD5X because I much prefer Naim sound.
So I'm well aware of the Linn sound -- and didn't care of it until I met Klimax DS which I liked very much.
I didn't find a dazzling difference in timing between HDX and Klimax DS though HDX was bare and this matters on timing.
I still think a sound clarity and gracious soundfield is mostly associated with jitter as the noise floor and dynamic range of the output stage is very low in both Linn and Naim. The Naim/Linn voicing is a different beast and Naim advantage is vastly relied on the circuit topology, speed of power supply and speed of the discrete elements of the gain stages.
Linn switching power supplies were always good in linearity but slow and this makes their sound a layback.
New Klimax DS with dynamik PS is not only spacious and refined -- it's very good in pronouncing the tiny transients.
I was very surprised to hear such a voicing from a Linn gear.
Although CDS3 still sounds better to my ears.

I think even top Naim system will not be ashamed of being fronted with Klimax DS -- but why bother of DS if Naim DAC will be able to sing?

quote:

Unfortunately (for some) they both have the ripping and storage functions.

Oops, I didn't notice that.

Hope they will offer a pure streamer after the see how much they loose on customers to pair Naim DAC with Squeeze/Sonus/Macs

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
I think even top Naim system will not be ashamed of being fronted with Klimax DS -- but why bother of DS if Naim DAC will be able to sing?

Hi AMA

I agree 100% and I should add that my unit was before the dynamik ,which I understand makes a big difference. I must say I was a bit worried about the Linn voicing when I got my LP12 with the Radikal/Urika but it sounds fantastic in my all Naim system. I understand that the dynamik supply came out of the research done on the Radikal PS. By the way I am also a big fan of the CDS3.

Cheers

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:
Hope they will offer a pure streamer after the see how much they loose on customers to pair Naim DAC with

AMA

I think Squeeze/Sonus/Macs is a good solution for now. I though about getting a Mac book pro to front my DAC (when it finally comes)and waiting for the Naim streamer to appear, but I have no patience when it comes to this hobby, so I ordered a NS01. On the other hand I am waiting patiently to get a 552 (only because I absolutely can't afford it)

Cheers

Bob

quote:

I understand that the dynamik supply came out of the research done on the Radikal PS.

Yes, and this is the biggest success of Linn R&D for the last years. As far as I know it works on Sondek motor, Urika, DS and preamps. The only one I heard -- was Klimax DS, so I can't judge the others (although the general opinion is that Urika is at very least not worse than Superline at a less cost).

Anyway Linn's breakthrough in low output power supplies will not cure the slow sound of Linn poweramps

If the jitter didn't make a difference, you shouldn't use a HDX - a Squeezebox should sound exactly the same. Most people who heard it say it doesn't.

The problem is that buffering helps, as does re-clocking, but the basic problem of S/PDIF cannot be solved. It's not just 1's and 0's, as you may quite miss a few because of the jitter. The protocol is very time sensitive, because it tries to "figure out" the clock from the signal (lock to the source clock) - and that is always prone to mistakes. Doing it in not-so-real time helps, but it still allows for problems, depending on the amount of jitter.

Now, the HDX should be a very good player. So, while en external PSU will, almost certainly help with the sound, it's a big question how big a difference would it be. I'm pretty sure it's measurable, by testing the DAC analogue output, with and without a PSU on the HDX - at least with an oscilloscope. Is it hearable is a different question.

Would I invest in a extra PSU for the HDX? Yes, but only a 555PS, and that's only after the DAC, with the 555PS is running into 552 and then 2xNAP 500 or something like that .

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by nkrgovic:
Would I invest in a extra PSU for the HDX? Yes, but only a 555PS, and that's only after the DAC, with the 555PS is running into 552 and then 2xNAP 500 or something like that Big Grin.



Crikey, you must be one of Naim's best customers Big Grin

It does not cost a lot to write down such a post.
Once get cash in hand it will be interesting to see what exactly nkrgovic will do -- we have so many temptations around us

just had a call with my local dealer.....dac delivery date is now mid/end december....
can one confirm? :-(

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by nkrgovic:
Would I invest in a extra PSU for the HDX? Yes, but only a 555PS, and that's only after the DAC, with the 555PS is running into 552 and then 2xNAP 500 or something like that Big Grin.



Crikey, you must be one of Naim's best customers Big Grin

It does not cost a lot to write down such a post.
Once get cash in hand it will be interesting to see what exactly nkrgovic will do -- we have so many temptations around us

I thought I was clear... but...

What I've meant is: The difference should, in my best guess, be so small that it would require the very best system to hear it, and, also, such that it any other case it's better to invest in another part of the system. The debate was "does it exist", not "is it a good investment".

Better?

Tough I do wish I could afford such an investment it's still years in the future...

Just a quick word to anyone who has ordered a new DAC; please be patient. In getting a new product to market there are always unexpected things that crop up and cause delays. I posted on another thread what I saw at Naim a week ago and so they're definitely being built... I also heard the DAC and Ovator S600 in their final form and all I can say is, they will both be well worth the wait!!

p.s. I'm in the queue as well...

I would expect most dealers to be supplying their pre-orders first before keeping one for their demo. Business should be about making money first.

I am confident that we will see our first shipment leving next.

Gordon

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:
Just a quick word to anyone who has ordered a new DAC; please be patient. In getting a new product to market there are always unexpected things that crop up and cause delays. I posted on another thread what I saw at Naim a week ago and so they're definitely being built... I also heard the DAC and Ovator S600 in their final form and all I can say is, they will both be well worth the wait!!

p.s. I'm in the queue as well...

Sorry Richard, that doesn't really alleviate my perceived 'impatience', after all I have 'only' been waiting since the beginning of October. You have said nothing new since last week.

Let's get to the core of this - do you expect customers who pre-ordered to receive their units:-
1) In the next week or so
2) Before Christmas
3) In the new year

Also, do all dealers get their units before pre-orders are fulfilled? In other words, are the units currently being built just for dealers?

Thanks

Allen

Allen, who ends up with the units is up to the dealers, not Naim. I suspect Naim is trying to build enough in the first shipment that their better dealers can get at least 2 initially so that the first customer order is rewarded and the dealer can display. It's also very important for consumers to be able to audition. Once in the pipeline, more should come quickly. Of course, as you heard, it will probably become quite popular once auditioned and keep them in a backlog for a bit. On the other hand, customers like Richard, myself and most dealers buying for themselves will step back from the que until stabilized to offset demand and marketing concerns.