Looking for the perfect integrated

Posted by: Peter Stockwell on 17 March 2001

I tried 4 integrateds this weekend. Myryad MI120, Audio Analogue Pucinni Remote, Linn Majik and Nait 5. Impossible to know where they stand compared with the home system, but I haven't been dissapointed when listening to the demo discs back home. What is emerging, although the Nait 5
demo was inconclusive, is that integrateds at less than 1500Eur/$1300/1000GBP don't cut the mustard in terms of timbral accuracy or coherence. For better timbral accuracy and coherence it has required either the Audio Analogue Bellini/Donezetti combination or the Linn Kolektor/LK140 combo. These are 1750Eur/$1600/1100GBP and 2050Eur/$1850/1300GBP respectively. I'm inclined towards the AA combo
because it's cheaper, the dealer is closer and I can try it at home. At least for the moment, There's two other Naim dealers I can go. Why not the 112/150 ?, it's too expensive here in France; 2700Eur/$2450/1700GBP

The Linn Majik, which was not better than an Audio Analogue Pucinni Remote at about 300Eur less money, is not up to scratch. It looses composure too easily and has a tendance to make Miles Davis trumpet, on 'Ascenseur pour l'eschafaud', sound like a Kazoo. We only listened to the Nait 5 for about 15 mins max and from cold, it marshalls its troops pretty well and gives a very well organized reading of what's recorded on the disc. However, stone cold, it doesn't have any heart. What do I mean ? While waiting for the dem room at 'Audio Synthese', the only Linn dealer in Paris, 'Terminator 2' running on the HT system, which for once wasn't all crash bang, but they had the sub
too high because Linda Hamilton sounded like a transsexual. There's a scene where Arnie is in the car with the kid and the kid starts crying, and Arnie says 'What's wrong with your eyes'. The Nait leaves that kind of impression when cold.

So what can expect from a warm Naim ?

Peter

Posted on: 17 March 2001 by Steve Toy

Hi, Peter,
Refer back to my e-mails on this subject. If the Nac112/nap150 is really that much more expensive in Paris than here in the UK, you would be saving some money buying them here. Including the cost of getting here and back. You don't say what speakers and source you are using. have you tried the Densen Beat B100 integrated? I read a review in the French Hi-fi magazine from a couple of years ago and it was priced at 7000 francs.

Posted on: 18 March 2001 by Peter Stockwell

thanks for your responses:

quote:
Steven: You don't say what speakers and source you are using. have you tried the Densen Beat B100 integrated?

The demo with the Nait was Linn Genki/nait 5/Linn Katan. At home it's Micromega Stage 6/magnum IA 160+MF160/B+W CDM1Se. The Densen doesn't have a remote and for the kind of money I'm ready to invest I want a remote. I may still listen to the Densen, as the closest naim dealer has it.

quote:
Ferd: The puccini is actually a very capable amp ... not overly detailed to the point of being analytical and critical. Its very musical and none fatiquing, bordering its character to be very tubelike. ... The Nait 5 on the other hand is a fast, pounding, little warm amp! I like it alot also and so does a few of my friends. When driving the Cresta3, ohh, its very nice also. The sound is very fast, lush, and its non fatiquing!

It's the lush and non fatiguing I'm interested in, I think it's bare bones capacities were evident, but I believe the dealer (theonlyLinn dealer in Paris) doesn't particular want to sell the Naim

Peter

Posted on: 18 March 2001 by Andrew Randle

The Densen kit is good and a worthy comparator to the Nait 5. However I do concur with Paul's comments that the kit can sound "obvious" - kind of mechanical in comparison with the Naim.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
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Posted on: 19 March 2001 by Peter Stockwell

I auditioned the Nait with my wife, who essentially didn't feel that it could significantly change our current set up. We'll definitely be giving it a better chance as the closest Naim dealer has his series 5's powered up all the time.

Incidentally, the owner at 'Audio Synthese' never leaves anything powered up contending that in their installation too many electronics fired up at the same time lead to a general perturbation of each piece of equipment's capabilities. He asserted that it was fairer to each piece of gear that way

Pete

Posted on: 19 March 2001 by John C

"has a tendencey to make Miles Davis trumpet, on 'Ascenseur pour l'eschafaud',sound like a Kazoo.

I had similar experience when plugging in my Nait 5 and listening to Lee Morgan. A few days later and that very Miles Davis track was rendered perfectly. How good? A year or so ago I sat 15 feet from Clark Terry as he played a haunting beautiful slow mutet trumpet solo. I am consistently amazed that Nait 5 can reproduce that feeling in my front room. I normally tune in more to bass lines, drum and rhythmn and have poor ear for timbre but I would give a warmed up nait a full test run before making your decision. Simply can't imagine that anything else comes near esp for jazz.

JohnQ

Posted on: 19 March 2001 by Peter Stockwell

quote:
Paul: ... only treat a dem at your dealers as a narrowing down process.Any good dealer will then let you try an amp in your home and system for a few days ... That is the only enviroment with which you are 100% familiar and can make meaningful comparisons.

'Audio Synthese' wasn't especially enthusiastic about a home demo, I think their response was negative. But, they're not the closest Naim dealer.

quote:
John C.: similar experience when plugging in my Nait 5 and listening to Lee Morgan. A few days later ... Miles Davis track was rendered perfectly. How good? ... I sat 15 feet from Clark Terry as he played a haunting beautiful slow mutet trumpet solo. I am consistently amazed that Nait 5 can reproduce that feeling ... I would give a warmed up nait a full test run before making your decision. Simply can't imagine that anything else comes near esp for jazz.

John C, Yours, Ferds and Steve's description of the Nait certainly lead me to expect great things of it. I haven't given up yet

Pete

Posted on: 19 March 2001 by Peter Stockwell

Jean Christophe,

The idea of 2nd hand is lurking at the back of my mind, and my wife asked me if I could buy second hand. OTOH, I really like the looks and features of the New 5 series, and a remote is 'de rigeur'.

For the moment, the 'level' of gear that's required to make a significant upgrade hasn't been determined yet either, even though I've decided I can go up to c. 2300eur/1500GBP.

Peter

Posted on: 20 March 2001 by wal riley

I see from the description of your home system that you have a Magnum amplification. Have you ever tried the Class A SE? I'm not sure whether Magnum still make it anymore, but it impressed the hell out of me. It's maybe a little dry in the treble, but it has serious drive and enthusiasm. On a personal level, I am happy with an Electrocompaniet ECI-2, which, sadly, is now out of production, but it has been replaced by the ECI-3, which has a remote. If it's anywhere near as good as the 2, then it will be one hell of an amp. The 2 has plenty of drive and sounds far more powerful than it's rating suggests. It can also create a vast soundstage, although it seems to do this without sacrificing much PRT. I've had it for 2 years now, and i'm still a good few years off upgrading it, preferring to concentrate on the CD player instead. If you can find a dealer, then these may be worth a listen.
Good luck!

Posted on: 21 March 2001 by Peter Stockwell

of champagne

Seriously Wal, my next assignment in the integrated search is a dealer who stocks the EC-3. I'm looking forward to hearing it, I'm worried about my wife's reaction, because she thinks standard 17" and 2-3" high gear is 'monstreux', and the EC-3 is way bigger than that. But, if the sound was worth it I'm sure she could be persuaded.

Peter

Posted on: 21 March 2001 by Steve Toy

This is probably because, traditionally the upgrade path with Linn is steeper than that with Naim (Nap 500 excepted) so in the long run they expect to make more money out of you. The "snooty" sound of Linn may also be in keeping with the image at Audio Synthese. IMHO the Ikemi, for example, does not represent good value for money, compared against a CD5/Flatcap, or even the slightly higher priced CDX. Yes, perhaps it does demonstrate more qualites "haute-fidelite" in the midrange and presence region, but it sounds flat, perhaps "polite" would be better, and a fast rock or dance bassline just completely trips it up!

quote:
....too many pieces of equipment fired up at the same time lead to a general perturbation of each piece of equipment's capabilities.

Is as if dirty mains can be introduced by one component into another. I remember reading that the power supplies on Linn equipment can have that effect, so he should turn the Linn off, and just keep all the other gear powered up!
Either that or this is a fancy piece of self-justification when he is really trying to keep his electricity bills down

Posted on: 21 March 2001 by Peter Stockwell

quote:
so he should turn the Linn off, and just keep all the other gear powered up! Either that or this is a fancy piece of self-justification when he is really trying to keep his electricity bills down

That gave me a good laugh, and I thought it was because he wanted to avoid nuclear pollution, and keep his electricity bills sown.

Seriously, I think he wants to get the clients hooked into Linn. I really don't want to think about changing the amplifier for 10 years after this buy. I might buy somthing evolutionary, like The Naim series 5, or even Cyrus, but for the moment the Audio Analogue Bellini/Donezzetti is my best value combo.

I've been reading with interest John C.'s thread about headphones and mulletedness, leads me to think that the best pre I can afford with an adequte power amp maybe a good solution.

I've got two more demos lined up this weekend. One essentially to listen to the Electrocopaniet EC3 and the other the new Creek 5350SE.

Peter

Posted on: 22 March 2001 by Peter Stockwell

I have a demo lined up at Choukroun Saturday afternoon, They have Naim ? They didn't mention it over the phone ... maybe because of the price range I gave them 1,8K -> 2K Euros. They mentioned Euphya, first time I ever heard of it.

I just checked with Choukroun, they have the Nait,a nd they warm it up. They don't have the 112/150, a bit odd I thought.

Peter

[This message was edited by Peter Stockwell on THURSDAY 22 March 2001 at 16:21.]

Posted on: 22 March 2001 by Steve Toy

In my home demo by John of Acoustica, Stafford, I prefered the CD3.5 over the Ikemi.

Posted on: 23 March 2001 by Jean-Claude

I bought my NAIM Gear (3.5, 92R / 90.5 )at Audio Synthèse. We had also some trials w/ LINN gear because I had no experience with.
They did not try to push me to LINN Products however.
I also recommend their good welcoming / service (home installation + repair (I had a concern w/ my CD 3.5 3 months after purchasing)).

I also went to A. CHOUKROUN who is a wonderful man and a NAIM fan (20 years ago he was of the first recommending to put money on source LP12).
The main problem w/ him is that your budget becomes quickly "dizzy", as much as you are listening to different configurations.

Posted on: 23 March 2001 by wal riley

Peter,
If you get to hear the Electro this weekend, stick a posting up on this thread and let me know what you think of it, whether you like it,(or absolutely hate it!). It'll be interesting to read someone else's opinion on this company's equipment.

Posted on: 24 March 2001 by Peter Stockwell

errr, excuse the horrible puns, but I've never been known to refuse a particularly bad one.

Didn't listen to the ECI-3 the thing wouldn't have fit into my stand. Listened to Thule IA150B, a fine amp if a tad distant in it's presentation of music, and the Sphynx Myth 5. The Myth 5 isn't bad either, but a bit fierce maybe.

I would have to say that neither have the sensous appeal of Naim

Peter

Posted on: 25 March 2001 by Rockingdoc

I believe that AA will give you the greatest long-term happiness.

Posted on: 26 March 2001 by Peter Stockwell

Evelyne and I went to another audio salon in Paris saturday. It's called Alain Choukroun. We had a hectic planning for saturday, we had a dinner engagement in a one * michelin at 20h00, and the demo chez choukroun at 16h00. Enough time to do the demo, go home, and then go back to the same neighbourhood for dinner. The Chinese restaurant was exquisite, and if you feel like spending about $100 per person I can recommend it. Although after the meal I felt it was twice as expensive as it needed to be, later my feeling moved around to one of wonder at the flavours that the chef had conjoured for us. Enchantment indeed.

Talking of enchantment, we were entertained and finally enchanted by the 'Choukroun Show'. I think we were the lowest budget clients saturday afternoon, but we had the pleasure of M. Alain Choukroun himself.

I booked the demo with the intention of hearing the creek 5350SE, which I din't even see. I'd discovered, accidentally, that "Il aime que Naim, On n'aime que lui", and for 20 years or so, at least. So we were presented with a nicely warmed up NAIT 5, With B+W CDM1 NT and a Rega Planet as a source. At the beginning of the demo, he wouldn't stop talking and we couldn't settle to listen seriously. There was another couple with us who'd wandered in by accident and they were discussing what they wanted. He went through a thing about how a mobile phone in the room with a system will degrade the sound, but I found people walking in and out, and talking, much more disturbing! He said the said the sound became more cartesian, rigid if you will, with the mobile in the room. Finally, after the other couple left, and we had some quiet we retrieved our mobile phone and the rest of the demo proceeded with the mobile in the room (but off).

We also listened to an Euphya 250, this appeared to do classic audiophile things better, but didn't let the music express its sensuality. In the end that little Nait really tugged on our emotions and I wanted to leave with it there and then! It's a sweet little monster of an amp and I cant wait for ours to be delivered in about 10 days. While signing the papers I said I would have been prepared to pay up to 15 KF (1400GBP or $2000) for something I liked, he seemed most frustrated that I was happy with the NAIT

So that's it, game set and match to Naim

Pet