Aro with Troika?

The Aro is a terrible product. Easily outperformed by the Ittok. The Ekos is so much better than either in my experience.

Yes, I know I got into a row with the late Julian V. on this subject. However, I think it's only fair I relate my experiences. And before you all ask, yes, I think that Robert Ritchie (who conducted the demo on which this assessment is based) knows how to set up an LP12, even an LP12 with an Aro on it.

If you want your 52/SCAP/500 to sound like it's got valves, get an Aro.

The emperor is still naked.

And in case you're wondering, the rest of my system is all Naim, from my Prefix to my active SBLs.

[This message was edited by Paul Davies on FRIDAY 27 July 2001 at 05:35.]

The Ittok is not even in the same league. The later Ittoks, maybe, and I've never heard an Ekos II, but the Aro sounds better than the Ekos I to my ears (although, as you say, demoing is difficult)

John

I spent a happy couple of hours at the Sound Galley in High Wycombe playing with the ARO and Ekos as an upgrake from my Ittok. (Great dealer set things up and left me alone). Both are very good products...I preferred the ARO. Yes the Ekos has better bass extension BUT I bought what was more musical to my ears. The worst aspect of the forum is slagging........diversity is what makes us what we are. I am not a violent man but sound beatings to all bigots!!!

I first owned a ittok for about four years. I then replaced this arm with an ekos II on my lp12. I used this arm for approx five years. Last year I replaced my ekos with an arrow. The arrow presents musical information quite differently to the linn arms and, to my ears much more cohesively. I am glad you are so sure from your brief dem as to the relative merits of these arms. Having lived with all of them I would have to say that I reached the opposite of conclusions. Clearly we have a different set of criteria when judging musical equipment.

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The Aro is a terrible product. Easily outperformed by the Ittok

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Paul is entitled to his opinion, and there are others who share it (not me I might add).

Dev

ps. Paul get a Well Tempered, even the mighty RR likes mine

I consider the ARO to be a "teriible product" because it fails so comprehensively in all areas of music reproduction that are important to me. When I heard the ARO, I had the impression that the cartridge was extracting much less information from the LP than with either of the Linn arms that I compared it with.

My abiding memeory of the demo was listening to Monty Alexander's "Live at Montreux" album. With the Linn arms (especially the Ekos) I got the impression that Monty was hammering those power chords before an excited audience. With the ARO, I got the impression that he was gently stroking the keyboard in front of an auidence that was half asleep. Given that I want my home audio system to recreate as much of the excitement of a live performance as possible, I find it hard to imagine that I would be satisfied with the ARO no matter how long I lived with it.

I guess that I am astonished by the popularity of this product among Naim users because those areas in which the ARO fails so comprehensively are exactly those that the rest of the Naim product line excels in (the whole PRAT thing).

Dev, Thanks for the support and for the tip on the Well Tempered. However, I'm off the audiophile treadmill these days, so I can't even be bothered to do anything about my "skanky" Arkiv A which is approaching the end of its working life. Say "Hi" to RR from me the next time you're in Montrose.

[This message was edited by Paul Davies on FRIDAY 27 July 2001 at 16:25.]

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If you want your 52/SCAP/500 to sound like it's got valves, get an Aro.

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I'm not sure that this is entirely a negative remark, as I've often heard this same comparison from tube lovers-turned-Naim customers.

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I consider the ARO to be a "teriible product" because it fails so comprehensively in all areas of music reproduction that are important to me.

I guess that I am astonished by the popularity of this product among Naim users because those areas in which the ARO fails so comprehensively are exactly those that the rest of the Naim product line excels in (the whole PRAT thing).

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But, like all things vinyl, the ARO can be quite sensitive to mis-setup. (I know--I've done it myself quite a few times, sometimes deliberately, just to see...)

I do know, however, plenty of people who are afraid of manually cueing up the ARO (though my 23-year-old ex-girlfriend could do it just fine after a few drinks), and this often manifests itself as a love for the convenience of cue-enabled gimballed arms...

Dave Dever, NANA

Tell us more about that girlfriend. ;-)

Listener Magazine has the Aro on its cover and a rather extensive article/review. Art seems to like it.

Chris Bell

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And before you all ask, yes, I think that Robert Ritchie (who conducted the demo on which this assessment is based) knows how to set up an LP12, even an LP12 with an ARO on it.

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Maybe if I should ask Robert if, in the time since he gave that dem, he has mastered the apparently black art of setting up the ARO to enable it to perform satisfactorily. And if the ARO really is _that_ sensitive to set up, it wouldn't be any use to me anyway, given the number of times I have moved to places where dealers capable of fine tuning suspended subchassis turntables are hard to find.

BTW, given that I have yet to hear a valve amplifier that didn't send me to sleep, the reamrk about making the 52/SCAP/NAP500 sound like a valve amp was intended to be negative.

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I do know, however, plenty of people who are afraid of manually cueing up the ARO

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I have no such fear.

Looks like I'm just going to have to live with being out on a limb on this one.

Nevertheless, I think the ARO is an excellent arm, whose emotional effect is much closer to that of the Ekos than I had previously thought. Consequently, I very much doubt I'd be devastated if I had to use an ARO instead of my Ekos.

A Troika is fine in an ARO.

--Jeremy

I agree completely.

Every time I've listened to the Ekos/Aro head to head I've preferred the Ekos....altho' I have not done with sbls only Kan I, Kan II and Epos E14s.

I have however listened to the aro very frequently through sbls and loved it.

Chris

So: I dont know wich arm I should take!

...Jun

When you need a new Troika who do you go to?
Do you have to provide an old one for rebuilding or can one buy "off the shelf"?

Thanks

Alex S

ps tried this Q by e-mail - failed
pps does anyone else have the answers?

I am using a Troika in an Aro right now and have for about the last year or so. It works extremely well and sounds better, to my ears, than the Ekos 2 (which I owned for a couple of years).

Rob--According to a friend of mine who teaches mechanical engineering, a unipivot like the Aro, with its single point of contact, actually offers superior rigidity. If I remember his explanation correctly, it creates an arch between the pointed bearing and the stylus.

Cheers,

Bob

Ride the Light !€

I don't think anyone will disagree that bass and highs are more prominent with an Ekos. If that's waht one values most, the Ekos is probably the right choice for that person.

Jun, Since you're a musician, and since you prefer other Naim things to Linn things, you'd probably prefer the ARO to the Ekos - but it's best if you can listen to both.

Or you can just pick one and enjoy - both are very fine arms. You're bound to be needled by someone, no matter which you choose! :-)

Regards.

Phil

I think Paul makes a very valid point here. I've got an ARO and prefer it to the Ekos for all the same well-rehearsed reasons - subtle, delicate, open presentation, natural etc etc. Yeah, just like valves! I'd never really considered how diametrical the ARO was with other Naim gear until reading that. When I got my first Naim amp in the late 70s (12S/160) they were generally considered authorative and detailed but very 'slow' (big buzz word at the time, prob still is?) and possibly laid back. Mine replaced some Quad valves! They were surprisingly similar. Somehow, over the years (?subliminally) they've become fast, very dyamic and upfront...all terms that ably describe the Ekos (which I find just too fatiguing). Was this a policy change in order ti become more fashionable or was it just how the R&D turned out? There's no doubt my ARO doesn't share the presentation of my 72/hi/250.

Just my 2p, Steve

I actually bought the ARO/17D2 combination. The only reason I got the 17D2 over the Troika is because I value rythm very highly. The Troika did a better job on 20% of my musical tastes but the 17D2 catered for the other 80% better (in terms of my own priorities).

Steve

Kans are for life, not for lunch.

i doubt one can generalise that unipivots have particular faults perculiar to themselves. but once can say that bad designs of any approach will sound bad.

prior to buying my aro, i can say that in nearly all the 4 dems i attended, the ekos was far, far better -- (interestingly, the aro exhibited different faults at each demo -- shouty, incoherent, slow, uninvolving, you name a fault -- and it was highlighted at some demo). at one demo, it would sound fast, and then at another it would sound slow, dull and boring. i well remember the guy demoing the it at a prominent london dealer saying to me, "well, the aro is just naim controvertially demonstrating that they can make a unipivot -- its not really for home use". another dealer was honest enough to admit that "we have had problems trying to make this arm work".

i almost bought the ekos till i heard the aro at naim musical evenings at billy vee and also again at audiofile. the way the aro sounded on both these occasions was very different from the previous dems.

i remember asking a naim rep at one of the musical evenings why i had had such unsuccessful demos, and he said "this is a new arm, we are still learning a lot from it, and the dealers are too --- give it time". i then asked him which dealer was best positioned to handle it and he suggested sound gallery in high wycome --- mind you this is about 10 years ago.

but i do agree that the ekos is a great arm, which works extremely well with linn cartridges. but now that i have lived with the aro, i would have difficulty living with it as i would miss the musical nuances presented so clearly by the aro.

with the prefix and geddon on an lp12, the aro weaves magic... nuff said...

enjoy

ken

Martin - what do they charge for a Troika that they've rebuilt (and that I have not initially provided).

Much as I'd love to recomend the Aro, I can't do so without reservation untill I hear one perform to my liking.

that is a good attitude to adopt. when you find one set up properly, you will be amazed how good it is. very different from ekos, but the aro is the king of musical nuances -- and this matters a great deal to me -- perhaps it doesnt matter so much to you???

enjoy

ken

But maybe I haven't spent enough time comparing the two - my only direct comparison was a demo soon after the ARO and Ekos were launched - where Troikas were used.

Either way, as I've said before, both can get much more emotion out of a record than anything else I've heard - and that's what counts (for me).

--Jeremy

yeah... not only do we hear differently, but even when we hear the same(how does one know?), we describe it differently.

my current stance is Ekos = explosive excitement and ARO = more subtle musical presentation.

i noticed the huge difference in nuance handling between the 2 arms with jazz music.

enjoy

ken

I have at most a year and a half to extoll the virtues of the Ekos before the dem.

--Jeremy