CD5x / HiCap v nDAC - Best way to compare

Posted by: HuwJ on 23 May 2010

Well, at last, I have an nDAC at home to test against my CD5x & HiCap2. The rest of my system is comprised of a SuperNait with HiCap2 and Focal 1027BE speakers.

I have a Macbook Pro (Cambridge optical / iTunes / WAV & AIFF & Lossless & Spotify 320) & Squeezebox 3 (Chord Coax / FLAC).

Test Tracks:
Naim Sampler 2 - Angel
Shelby Lynne - Just a Little Lovin
Biffy Clyro - Living is a Problem......
Ricky Lee Jones - Various off self titled album
Green Day - various off American Idiot

My aim is to get a DAC that is as good or better than my CD5x for a similar outlay of cash. I don't want to have to buy a power supply top supplement the nDAC or a CD transport or HDX.

Initial listening tests suggest the nDAC is not as 'good' as the CD. The most noticeable difference is in instrument definition. Instruments sound sharper and more defined via the CD.

While previously there was a noticeable difference between the Mac and the SB3 that is no longer there, they sound very similar indeed now and better than through the SuperNait DAC. However I would not say there was a night & day difference in quality between the nDAC and SNDAC.

I was lead to believe by my dealer that the nDAC should sound better than the CD player.

Any input or suggestions with regard to maximising the sound output from the nDAC (I can't change interconnects) would be gratefully received.

Regards,
Huw

Posted on: 23 May 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
I was lead to believe by my dealer that the nDAC should sound better than the CD player.

Surely not with a Macbook Pro/(Cambridge) optical/iTunes? The transport does matter - I think the Mac's S/PDIF is a weak link - although I've not heard it others report that using better software and and using the Hi-Face improves matters.

I tried a Mac with some Bluetooth (BT) Advanced Audio Distribution Profile (A2DP) software drivers into an inexpensive Chordette Gem DAC and it sounded as good as a Rega Apollo. Far more musical than any other sub-£1 DAC I've heard, but I prefer the nDAC by quite a margin when the front end is matched to it.

Suggestion - eliminate the MAC for your tests; use a USB stick with a few WAV files - this shows you just how good the nDAC can be. If you still prefer your CD then best forget about DACs, as you simply prefer your CDP and why not?

Posted on: 23 May 2010 by HuwJ

ROTF,

Good point re the USB stick. Just setting it in motion now.

I use Winamp to rip .wav files but also have Mediamonkey, itunes, Foobar2000 and dBpoweramp (which seems to not work and may have run out of free time). Is there going to be much difference in quality? I also have EAC but that seems not to work with Windows 7?

Regards
Huw

Posted on: 23 May 2010 by DHT

The little 'hiface' will improve things and a Weiss firewire interface will be even better, I find the optical out of a mac to be my least favourite.

Posted on: 23 May 2010 by Guido Fawkes

quote:
Originally posted by HuwJ:
ROTF,

Good point re the USB stick. Just setting it in motion now.

I use Winamp to rip .wav files but also have Mediamonkey, itunes, Foobar2000 and dBpoweramp (which seems to not work and may have run out of free time). Is there going to be much difference in quality? I also have EAC but that seems not to work with Windows 7?

Regards
Huw

Sorry I don't know my way around Windows applications - you could just copy some WAV files from your MacBook Pro to a USB stick.

Posted on: 23 May 2010 by fatcat

Huw

I have a heavily modified (upgraded) Rotel CD player, which I doubt is better than a CD5x. I find connecting the Naim dac to the Rotel S/PDIF output improves thing, but not by a massive amount. There isn’t a great deal of difference between the Rotel CD player and a USB/Naim Dac combo.

Posted on: 23 May 2010 by David Quigley

I am also very surprised. In my test of CDSII vs Apple TV (ALAC) +nDAC with XPS, it was pretty much a draw. Rest of system is 252pre and 300 power, speakers Pro-ac 1SC - so all in all revealing. There were some differences for sure but it was hard to say one was better than the other. After 3 weeks of not using the CD it was packed up for sale. Clearly if it was not that missed by my ears. The energy put into loading the CD player is now dedicated to adding to the ripped database.

I will say that the optical cable did matter and upgrading to a halfway decent cable made a decent difference. I think it is largely to do with the connections rather than anything else.

Posted on: 23 May 2010 by PureHifi

quote:
Originally posted by HuwJ:
Good point re the USB stick. Just setting it in motion now. I use Winamp to rip .wav files but also have Mediamonkey, itunes, Foobar2000 and dBpoweramp (which seems to not work and may have run out of free time). Is there going to be much difference in quality?
Huw

A couple of things to bear in mind....

1. Comparing a CD5X (hicapped or not) and the nDac with a computer source is introducing so many variables that is it will rapidly become an issue of confusion (but a good learning experience as you troll through the information available from other's experience).

2. The source is highly relevant, regardless whether it is a USB stick (of varying results), a CDP used as a transport or computers with varying software/hardware/rip qualities.

3. If you really want to find out how good the nDac is then I would suggest that the dealer supplying you with the nDac should loan you a CD5XS so that you can listen to it as a straight analogue device and then as a transport.

That way, you take out a huge number of variables. If you are not already using a HiLine, I would strongly suggest you should use the better interconnect over the std Din cable, also if possible use the DC1 BNC to BNC digital interconnect for your test.

Posted on: 23 May 2010 by HuwJ

Had a chance to compare the USB and CD. It's good because I can start tracks in Sync and easily swap.

With the USB I would say it is more or less equal but somehow I can't kick the feeling that the CD is slightly more dynamic. The DAC does sound a little better today than it did yesterday.

I guess it has the potential to equal the CD Combo but not to be better - unless I miss something. Using the USB sticks is a chore though and not really very user friendly. Getting a computer base source that equals the USB stick is, I guess, the way forward.

Regards,
Huw

Posted on: 23 May 2010 by fatcat

quote:
Originally posted by David Quigley:
I am also very surprised. In my test of CDSII vs Apple TV (ALAC) +nDAC with XPS, it was pretty much a draw. Rest of system is 252pre and 300 power, speakers Pro-ac 1SC - so all in all revealing. There were some differences for sure but it was hard to say one was better than the other. After 3 weeks of not using the CD it was packed up for sale. Clearly if it was not that missed by my ears. The energy put into loading the CD player is now dedicated to adding to the ripped database.

I will say that the optical cable did matter and upgrading to a halfway decent cable made a decent difference. I think it is largely to do with the connections rather than anything else.

I found the opposite. I used the DAC for 3 weeks, then went back to the CDS2, after 3 weeks I gave the DAC another chance, but went back to the CDS2. This has gone on for 4 months.

If you haven’t sold it yet, give CDS2 another try.

Posted on: 24 May 2010 by Andy S

quote:
Originally posted by HuwJ:
I also have EAC but that seems not to work with Windows 7?

Regards
Huw

Yes it does - have ripped 300 or so CDs through EAC+Win 7. Are you having the problem with EAC crashing when it opens a dialog? There is a known incompatibility with Adobe Drive. Removing that cured my system. There are also some other hints to try here: http://www.digital-inn.de/exac...ties-bug-report.html

Posted on: 24 May 2010 by HuwJ

Thanks Andy. I don't remember why it would not work. But I'll look into it again. I get the impression it is no longer supported these days though.

Really in two minds with the nDAC. I guess the ideal solution is to convert the CD5x in to a transport but I can't afford that and the DAC si I guess that is not going to happen unless I wait until I'm a little more flush.

Regards,
Huw

Posted on: 25 May 2010 by AMA

Huw,

I guess your digital transport for nDAC is the week element in the chain.

When I had nDAC on the home demo I used Logitech Transporter and also used USB stick to stack it up across my CD5X/HiCap. In this test nDAC has trounced CD5X/HC in absolutely ALL sonic aspects. And the transients in nDAC and sound clarity and the soundstage and bass articulation -- all were much better than CD5X/HC. The point was when I hooked XPS on nDAC it transformed the whole sound into a much higher level -- remarkably similar to CDS3/XPS

I can link you to my old post on this test

Posted on: 26 May 2010 by mike k burke

Hi Huw,

I have just done a similar comparison to yourself between a cd5xs with the optical output through a DAC against my USB stick. The USB stick won, hence I have ordered a DAC rather than upgrade my old CD3. The WAV's were ripped by EAC so bit perfect. The main difference as far as I was concerned is the bass played tunefully rather than being a series of thumps, if that makes any kind of sense. The first impression though is of lack of bass, but I have experienced this previously when upgrading - you quickly realise it is actually playing half an octave lower than where you were originally listening! Based on my experience I think you just need to make sure your WAV's are correctly ripped. Hope this helps

Regards,

Mike Burke

Posted on: 26 May 2010 by pcstockton

Mike,

The bass changing frequencies to a 1/2 octave lower is definitely NOT bit perfect. In fact it would through everything quite out of tune.

How does the WAV format selectively change only bass notes?

These are the kind of comments that make it very difficult to accept anything else written in the post.

-patrick

Posted on: 26 May 2010 by Harry

I have compared a retro modified CDX2 (which I still have) with our new HDX's HDD, music ripped via the HDX to NAS and USB stick. The CDX2 came last. This is not to say the CDX2 was "bad" in any way, but it's the source I would chose last and therefore will be the first to go, which it will at some point. However, at the level of replay quality I am now enjoying there's no way of losing. It just comes down to fractions of perception and personal taste. They're all bloody good performers in absolute terms.

Two things I will add: I've never heard a nDAC bare. Mine started out with the XPS2 and is now on 555PS. So perhaps I should have qualified my findings above in that context. Second, BNC interconnects do sound different to me. This came as a surprise because I'm very sceptical and it's only ones and zeros so it makes no difference - right? Er, well, no. Don't ask me why or how. The DC1 can be bettered - at a price.

Posted on: 27 May 2010 by AMA

quote:
The DC1 can be bettered - at a price.

With?

Posted on: 27 May 2010 by mike k burke

quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
Mike,

The bass changing frequencies to a 1/2 octave lower is definitely NOT bit perfect. In fact it would through everything quite out of tune.

How does the WAV format selectively change only bass notes?

These are the kind of comments that make it very difficult to accept anything else written in the post.

-patrick

Hi Patrick,

you are no doubt right in that the pitch probably is right, but the impression is of going from a lot of bass not particularly in control to a much tighter, focused rendition that you can actually follow the tune

Posted on: 27 May 2010 by pcstockton

Mike,

Now that makes sense.

_patrick

Posted on: 27 May 2010 by Harry

quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
quote:
The DC1 can be bettered - at a price.

With?

In my system, Chord Indigo Plus. I haven't bought it yet but I will.

Posted on: 28 May 2010 by AMA

quote:
In my system, Chord Indigo Plus. I haven't bought it yet but I will.

Harry, do I read you correct: you run HDX into nDAC through DC1 and through Chord Indigo and you pick up a difference on 16/44 tracks?

Posted on: 28 May 2010 by Harry

Yes. The Indigo is open and airy, replacing with the DC1 flattens it a bit but there is increased grip. The differences are not huge but are there none the less. This should not be possible. I mean, it's just bits right? I couldn't begin to explain why. Happily for me explanation is not necessary. If you think I'm not insane try borrowing one for a couple of weeks. No difference in your system? No harm, no foul.

Posted on: 28 May 2010 by AMA