Harsh treble.
Posted by: fled on 20 May 2003
This is not the first post on this by me, but I am narrowing down the cause I think, your comments/ help will be greatly appreaciated.
System CD5+HI 102+HI+Napsc 180 Dynaudio 1.1 + NACA5 in a big room (4m x 8m)
Problem - Harsh treble at 9oclock and over on the volume dial, unfortunate as my ideal listening is 9 to 10 position. Bass and mid range are fine.
My initial thought was its the cdp or cable(due to a replacemnt CD5 and upgrading to NACA5 from QED)but thats know bedded in and gives good results until that 9 oclock position, so what can i do, is it the Dyns ? is it the 180
if I go to a 250 will this help or will it infact make matters worse. I have a pair of Dyn 42,s (rears in a 5.1 set up) that I can try but this seems a downward step ?
I suppose the question is next upgrade ?
1. better cdp
2. 180 to 250
3. 102 to 82
4. Change the speakers (dont real want to do this as I love them)
Overall I love the system but this harsh treble is getting me down
Phil
System CD5+HI 102+HI+Napsc 180 Dynaudio 1.1 + NACA5 in a big room (4m x 8m)
Problem - Harsh treble at 9oclock and over on the volume dial, unfortunate as my ideal listening is 9 to 10 position. Bass and mid range are fine.
My initial thought was its the cdp or cable(due to a replacemnt CD5 and upgrading to NACA5 from QED)but thats know bedded in and gives good results until that 9 oclock position, so what can i do, is it the Dyns ? is it the 180
if I go to a 250 will this help or will it infact make matters worse. I have a pair of Dyn 42,s (rears in a 5.1 set up) that I can try but this seems a downward step ?
I suppose the question is next upgrade ?
1. better cdp
2. 180 to 250
3. 102 to 82
4. Change the speakers (dont real want to do this as I love them)
Overall I love the system but this harsh treble is getting me down
Phil
the power amp is 6 mths old 
Not that then... 
That harshness that you describe was the last big thing that was bugging me about my system. At lower volumes it was wonderful. At higher SPLs, though, that hard/harsh sound would drive me batty. Here's what I did:
All of the above improved the problem with harshness. (Step #1 got me only half way there.) Now my system's only limitation is maximum volume. I can get the Albion's woofers popping before the harshness bugs me. Heed this advice, and you might get the same level of satisfaction.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
- Upgraded my gear until CDS2/52/Super/2*135/RoydAlbion. (Don't laugh! This was one of the main reasons I kept upgrading. In the end, I don't think this was the "best" route to solve that particular problem, but it did result in a very nice system. The following points are a little more reasonable.
) - Installed two dedicated, 20-amp mains lines. One is used for the CD player, while the other has a power bar with the rest of the gear.
- The power bar is similar to the Wiremold power strip; essentially it's a Hammond power bar converted to use Bryant spec outlets, and no switch.
- I replaced the ground clamp on my water pipe, because the old one was very corroded.
- I rewired the internals of my Albions, so that both speakers shared the same binding posts, eliminating the need for a strap between the binding posts. (Prior to that, I had tried changing the stock brass strap to copper, and then changed to an "F" configuration with two sets of plugs on my cables. Both of these improved the situation, but neither as much as using the single set of binding posts.)
- Changed the connector at the speaker end to Ecosse Z plugs. This was surprisingly good upgrade.
All of the above improved the problem with harshness. (Step #1 got me only half way there.) Now my system's only limitation is maximum volume. I can get the Albion's woofers popping before the harshness bugs me. Heed this advice, and you might get the same level of satisfaction.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Sae:
I can confirm this. The only way I could tell that I was playing Mike's sistem at blistering levels was when Mike told me "you're playing the sistem at blistering levels".
I think the knob was at about 11:30, IIRC.
Believe it or not, Mike, I still felt that there was too much harshness at that time. My system is much better now (although the woofers still won't let me go higher, which is the only remaining issue, albeit a small one
).-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Fled
There are several things which I do not like the look of in your setup, so let me preface what I am about to say with the usual caveats of taking the WAF factor into consideration!
I know Dynaudios quite well and you have them setup about as suboptimally as possible. Ideally:
1. They like to be closer together than further apart - in your room about 6 feet apart should do.
2. They do not like being toed in. This causes a pinched narrow perspective very often, although in your case, with them being so far apart this is unlikely to happen.
3. They need a decent stand. I see you're using the entry-level Atacamas. The Dynaudio Masterstands are really the ticket with all Dyns, but especially in the Contour range. Those Atacamas won't be able to handle the energy coming out of a pair of 1.1's.
4. Somehow (and I don't know why) HiFi's sound better if they're not placed between the speakers.
So, given the ideals, what can you do?
1. The right hand speaker should at least go in between HiFi rack (oh my Gosh it's a Stands Unique!) and TV. You need at least 1 foot away from the TV since they're only part shielded. This would also allow you to have the speakers in a more dead-ahead position (you may still have to toe in, but only slightly). This will bring benefits in terms of scale pace and cohesion - you may find 10 o'clock to be too loud if you do this!
2. Borrow a pair of Dynaudio Masterstands from your friendly neighbourhood dealer. the difference should be remarkable.
3. The Stands Unique could be helped a little, especially if it is the 6mm variety (it comes in 6mm and 10mm glass variants). Try putting dampening materials on each shelf in the rack. Sounds technical, but what I mean is try a hand towel under each piece of equipment and see if it makes a difference. If it does then you know the rack is contributing to the harshness and you can try dampening it down with proper dampening things like blutak etc. This would also lend the argument of moving the right hand speaker a lot of weight.
4. When you play music, do you leave the TV on standby? If so, switch it off at the mains or at the switch on the front of the TV. A layer of harshness should be removed. This will be subtle but you should hear the difference.
Dynaudio 1.1's are difficult to drive and will sound harsh if the amp isn't up to the task. However, I don't believe that to be the case in this scenario. Although it's a big room, the listening position is no more distant than average. Also your listening level isn't that high if it's 9 - 10 o'clock. This is more a function of setup than a mismatch of equipment in my view (apart from those Atacamas). Try the cheap options I mentioned (try the towels first) and that should help you identify where things are going wrong. Then move on to the stands option if nothing else works.
Finally and only for completeness, you may wish to consider buying a Quadraspire centre speaker stand which has built in angles allowing you to have the centre speaker aiming up a little. It's so low that it needs the help.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
There are several things which I do not like the look of in your setup, so let me preface what I am about to say with the usual caveats of taking the WAF factor into consideration!
I know Dynaudios quite well and you have them setup about as suboptimally as possible.
Ideally:1. They like to be closer together than further apart - in your room about 6 feet apart should do.
2. They do not like being toed in. This causes a pinched narrow perspective very often, although in your case, with them being so far apart this is unlikely to happen.
3. They need a decent stand. I see you're using the entry-level Atacamas. The Dynaudio Masterstands are really the ticket with all Dyns, but especially in the Contour range. Those Atacamas won't be able to handle the energy coming out of a pair of 1.1's.
4. Somehow (and I don't know why) HiFi's sound better if they're not placed between the speakers.
So, given the ideals, what can you do?
1. The right hand speaker should at least go in between HiFi rack (oh my Gosh it's a Stands Unique!) and TV. You need at least 1 foot away from the TV since they're only part shielded. This would also allow you to have the speakers in a more dead-ahead position (you may still have to toe in, but only slightly). This will bring benefits in terms of scale pace and cohesion - you may find 10 o'clock to be too loud if you do this!
2. Borrow a pair of Dynaudio Masterstands from your friendly neighbourhood dealer. the difference should be remarkable.
3. The Stands Unique could be helped a little, especially if it is the 6mm variety (it comes in 6mm and 10mm glass variants). Try putting dampening materials on each shelf in the rack. Sounds technical, but what I mean is try a hand towel under each piece of equipment and see if it makes a difference. If it does then you know the rack is contributing to the harshness and you can try dampening it down with proper dampening things like blutak etc. This would also lend the argument of moving the right hand speaker a lot of weight.
4. When you play music, do you leave the TV on standby? If so, switch it off at the mains or at the switch on the front of the TV. A layer of harshness should be removed. This will be subtle but you should hear the difference.
Dynaudio 1.1's are difficult to drive and will sound harsh if the amp isn't up to the task. However, I don't believe that to be the case in this scenario. Although it's a big room, the listening position is no more distant than average. Also your listening level isn't that high if it's 9 - 10 o'clock. This is more a function of setup than a mismatch of equipment in my view (apart from those Atacamas). Try the cheap options I mentioned (try the towels first) and that should help you identify where things are going wrong. Then move on to the stands option if nothing else works.
Finally and only for completeness, you may wish to consider buying a Quadraspire centre speaker stand which has built in angles allowing you to have the centre speaker aiming up a little. It's so low that it needs the help.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Frank.
Thanks for all your suggestions, things are starting to improve
1. I have moved the RH speaker, not unfortunatley to 6ft more like 7 and a bit (WAF) and reduced toe in this has improved the overall presentaion, but not alas the harshness, then i tried putting the covers on the dyns (an earlier suggestion) BINGO smoothed out no end, could it be as simple as this ?
I have 10mm glass but will try the tweek to see if it improves even more, likewise the stands I will try to demo a pair ?
Through all of this I have noticed someting strange as the improvements occur the Hicaps lost there buzz from the transformer, does this point at cleaner mains, and thats the real reason for improvement ?
Phi
Thanks for all your suggestions, things are starting to improve
1. I have moved the RH speaker, not unfortunatley to 6ft more like 7 and a bit (WAF) and reduced toe in this has improved the overall presentaion, but not alas the harshness, then i tried putting the covers on the dyns (an earlier suggestion) BINGO smoothed out no end, could it be as simple as this ?
I have 10mm glass but will try the tweek to see if it improves even more, likewise the stands I will try to demo a pair ?
Through all of this I have noticed someting strange as the improvements occur the Hicaps lost there buzz from the transformer, does this point at cleaner mains, and thats the real reason for improvement ?
Phi