Harsh treble.
Posted by: fled on 20 May 2003
This is not the first post on this by me, but I am narrowing down the cause I think, your comments/ help will be greatly appreaciated.
System CD5+HI 102+HI+Napsc 180 Dynaudio 1.1 + NACA5 in a big room (4m x 8m)
Problem - Harsh treble at 9oclock and over on the volume dial, unfortunate as my ideal listening is 9 to 10 position. Bass and mid range are fine.
My initial thought was its the cdp or cable(due to a replacemnt CD5 and upgrading to NACA5 from QED)but thats know bedded in and gives good results until that 9 oclock position, so what can i do, is it the Dyns ? is it the 180
if I go to a 250 will this help or will it infact make matters worse. I have a pair of Dyn 42,s (rears in a 5.1 set up) that I can try but this seems a downward step ?
I suppose the question is next upgrade ?
1. better cdp
2. 180 to 250
3. 102 to 82
4. Change the speakers (dont real want to do this as I love them)
Overall I love the system but this harsh treble is getting me down
Phil
System CD5+HI 102+HI+Napsc 180 Dynaudio 1.1 + NACA5 in a big room (4m x 8m)
Problem - Harsh treble at 9oclock and over on the volume dial, unfortunate as my ideal listening is 9 to 10 position. Bass and mid range are fine.
My initial thought was its the cdp or cable(due to a replacemnt CD5 and upgrading to NACA5 from QED)but thats know bedded in and gives good results until that 9 oclock position, so what can i do, is it the Dyns ? is it the 180
if I go to a 250 will this help or will it infact make matters worse. I have a pair of Dyn 42,s (rears in a 5.1 set up) that I can try but this seems a downward step ?
I suppose the question is next upgrade ?
1. better cdp
2. 180 to 250
3. 102 to 82
4. Change the speakers (dont real want to do this as I love them)
Overall I love the system but this harsh treble is getting me down
Phil
Posted on: 07 June 2003 by David Stewart
Fled,
If you've not already seen it, take a look at this thread from Nick Lees. He had the Electric Company install a new feed from the street because of mains quality problems. You will need to get hold of a logger to record voltage variations over time before they'll take action, but if this is your problem it may be worth while - good luck.
David
If you've not already seen it, take a look at this thread from Nick Lees. He had the Electric Company install a new feed from the street because of mains quality problems. You will need to get hold of a logger to record voltage variations over time before they'll take action, but if this is your problem it may be worth while - good luck.
David
Posted on: 07 June 2003 by Alco
quote:I was told just the opposite by my dealer! He said:"the treble will go softer over a >10 years period" (very slowly though)
have been told that when a power amp needs a service or recap, the treble can go harsh. 10 years (ish) I was told yesterday.
The 250 seems to sound a fair bit smoother than the 180 too, so changing the 180 for a 250 might also be useful. (also because you've already got a HiCap)
regards,
Alco
Posted on: 07 June 2003 by hi fi fo fum
get hold of some "Z" plugs for the wire...they are cheap and well worth doing....it will help you with the problem....the ends you have on your wire are crap....
Steve
Steve
Posted on: 07 June 2003 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by hi fi fo fum:
get hold of some "Z" plugs for the wire...they are cheap and well worth doing....it will help you with the problem....the ends you have on your wire are crap....
Steve
hahaha long live the "ZZZ" group. Steve, you are the guild Master.
Posted on: 07 June 2003 by HTK
Greg's tissue paper suggestion...
Sounded rather way out to me. "Why the hell would you want to something so unscientific?" I thought.
However, I take my hat off to you Greg and eat it! My Talismans were spitting at me since a Hi Cap went on the CD5. New speaker cable coming on Monday and amp (Audio Innovations 500) going off for a refurb in the hope of taming the treble without losing the wonderful detail and pace - not to mention the rather nice and tuneful bass which arrived with the HiCap.
Did the tissue paper over the tweeter thing this afternoon in a moment of boredom and what do you know?!
Remarkable. Now I'm going to look into upgrading the tissue....
Cheers
Harry
Sounded rather way out to me. "Why the hell would you want to something so unscientific?" I thought.
However, I take my hat off to you Greg and eat it! My Talismans were spitting at me since a Hi Cap went on the CD5. New speaker cable coming on Monday and amp (Audio Innovations 500) going off for a refurb in the hope of taming the treble without losing the wonderful detail and pace - not to mention the rather nice and tuneful bass which arrived with the HiCap.
Did the tissue paper over the tweeter thing this afternoon in a moment of boredom and what do you know?!
Remarkable. Now I'm going to look into upgrading the tissue....
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 07 June 2003 by Greg Beatty
Thanx!
The tissue paper thing is an old trick started I think with Yamaha studio monitors. There was even an article in an audiophile magazine that compared the sound of different brands of tissue paper!
Oh, if the harshness came with the hicap, and you determine that its not a run-in-of-the-new-hicap issue, then I would suspect the cable. Do you have it the right way round? Is it one of the new cables?
I remember my 72/140 was cleaner up top than my 72/hi/140 - but the new Black SNAIC clears much of this up.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
The tissue paper thing is an old trick started I think with Yamaha studio monitors. There was even an article in an audiophile magazine that compared the sound of different brands of tissue paper!
Oh, if the harshness came with the hicap, and you determine that its not a run-in-of-the-new-hicap issue, then I would suspect the cable. Do you have it the right way round? Is it one of the new cables?
I remember my 72/140 was cleaner up top than my 72/hi/140 - but the new Black SNAIC clears much of this up.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 07 June 2003 by Chris Bell
Errr...nobody has noticed the 500Lb gorilla in the room: All those superfluous transducers! Get rid of the TV, center, sub, and surround speakers. They are making your system go out-of-tune and causing huge phase problems. (harshness)
Also, make sure nothing else is plugged in to the system: DVD, surround processor, ect. The mains filtering in those devices will cause your Naim system to sound like crap. Dedicated power also can make a big difference and will mellow your system.
Chris Bell
Also, make sure nothing else is plugged in to the system: DVD, surround processor, ect. The mains filtering in those devices will cause your Naim system to sound like crap. Dedicated power also can make a big difference and will mellow your system.
Chris Bell
Posted on: 08 June 2003 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by HTK:
My Talismans were spitting at me since a Hi Cap went on the CD5.
Harry,
one thing to be careful of - if your new HiCap is positioned too closed to either your CDP or your preamp you will get a nasty sound, which could well be described as spitty.
This is often overlooked by those who upgrade, but squeeze another box or two into the existing racking.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com
Posted on: 08 June 2003 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Alco:quote:
have been told that when a power amp needs a service or recap, the treble can go harsh.
I was told just the opposite by my dealer! He said:"the treble will go softer over a >10 years period" (very slowly though)
Alco,
when my system was recapped, I found that the sound was brighter (had lost some dullness) but also much cleaner.
So, you are actually both right - if the sound is dull at one moment and harsh the next, a recap is probably due.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com
Posted on: 08 June 2003 by HTK
Thanks very much for all the feedback and advice.
There are numerous things I really ought to attend to, but it's a question of time, logistics, money and marital bliss.
Can't move the telly but it's down the opposite end of the room from the system (not all Naim boxes, so not a sistem). It's unplugged for anything other than casual, one track listening.
No dedicated mains spur. Yet.
CDP is the full length of a SNAIC away from the HiCap, but HiCap is on a shelf directly below the (non Naim) amp. There's a gap of about 7" so I hope that's enough. Limited space available, so moving it around is difficult.
Speaker cable. Ah yes. Guilty! It's 1988 vintage QED 79 strand and the speakers are bi wired. I know - I've broken one of the Naim commandments - but I'm not using Naim amps and the Ruark Talismans sound bloody dull if not bi wired. Honest! I'm going to my local Naim dealer (Radfords Bath) tomorrow and getting new speaker cable - brand and price TBA, but I trust them.
Amp is a bit of an oddity. Audio Innovations 500 valve integrated. It's going for a service this month because it hasn't been touched since 1982. That might improve things. If not, it's worth something S/H - an essential consideration given that we're almost certainly moving more Naim boxes in as circumstances permit - but we're talking years rather than months so the amp needs to be tip top for now.
And the HiCap. It's been running for a week since a refurb at Naim so it certainly hasn't settled down to its optimum performance yet. You could argue (and I'd probably agree with you) that all I have to do is wait. But people like us just arn't like that are we? I want improvements now! HiCap has made a remarkable difference. The system has never sounded better but the top end is spitting.
Inserting the Kleenex seems to have lost none of the detail and lucidity but has taken the edge off. It's also allowed the wonderful, tuneful bass to find the right level.
I've also grown muscles over the last week through numerous speaker positioning tweaks. They're now at least half a metre from corners and walls and I'm amazed at what a difference this has made. I suppose it's a function of having such a good front end.
Thanks for letting me babble. The saga will, no doubt continue.
Cheers
Harry
There are numerous things I really ought to attend to, but it's a question of time, logistics, money and marital bliss.
Can't move the telly but it's down the opposite end of the room from the system (not all Naim boxes, so not a sistem). It's unplugged for anything other than casual, one track listening.
No dedicated mains spur. Yet.
CDP is the full length of a SNAIC away from the HiCap, but HiCap is on a shelf directly below the (non Naim) amp. There's a gap of about 7" so I hope that's enough. Limited space available, so moving it around is difficult.
Speaker cable. Ah yes. Guilty! It's 1988 vintage QED 79 strand and the speakers are bi wired. I know - I've broken one of the Naim commandments - but I'm not using Naim amps and the Ruark Talismans sound bloody dull if not bi wired. Honest! I'm going to my local Naim dealer (Radfords Bath) tomorrow and getting new speaker cable - brand and price TBA, but I trust them.
Amp is a bit of an oddity. Audio Innovations 500 valve integrated. It's going for a service this month because it hasn't been touched since 1982. That might improve things. If not, it's worth something S/H - an essential consideration given that we're almost certainly moving more Naim boxes in as circumstances permit - but we're talking years rather than months so the amp needs to be tip top for now.
And the HiCap. It's been running for a week since a refurb at Naim so it certainly hasn't settled down to its optimum performance yet. You could argue (and I'd probably agree with you) that all I have to do is wait. But people like us just arn't like that are we? I want improvements now! HiCap has made a remarkable difference. The system has never sounded better but the top end is spitting.
Inserting the Kleenex seems to have lost none of the detail and lucidity but has taken the edge off. It's also allowed the wonderful, tuneful bass to find the right level.
I've also grown muscles over the last week through numerous speaker positioning tweaks. They're now at least half a metre from corners and walls and I'm amazed at what a difference this has made. I suppose it's a function of having such a good front end.
Thanks for letting me babble. The saga will, no doubt continue.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 08 June 2003 by bjorne
Hi Harry.
I have some experience from your amp from when I was working in a hifishop in Sweden in the late 80's. I remember it being a very nice amp playing music in such a way that it's easy to forget the sound and just enjoying it. But if it hasn't been serviced at all ( no change of tubes even?? ) it must be performing well below what it can do. If you don't use a turntable it might be a good idea to remove the phonosection as this is said to improve the sound from the line inputs. I know it was also popular to have it converted to triode operation but I have not heard one with this modification. Maybe the people doing the service can help you with this. Triode operation can give a more open, sweet sound but output power will be reduced so speakerchoice is critical with a high impedance normally being more important than high sensitivity. I remember Audio Innovations triode monoblock, 15 watts, being able to drive the big Mirage M1's beatifully to medium listening levels, these speakers being 83 db only with a rather low but even impedance. Those monoblocks did the job a lot better than a McIntosh 100 watt poweramp.
Good luck with your sistem, it seems to be an interesting one.
I have some experience from your amp from when I was working in a hifishop in Sweden in the late 80's. I remember it being a very nice amp playing music in such a way that it's easy to forget the sound and just enjoying it. But if it hasn't been serviced at all ( no change of tubes even?? ) it must be performing well below what it can do. If you don't use a turntable it might be a good idea to remove the phonosection as this is said to improve the sound from the line inputs. I know it was also popular to have it converted to triode operation but I have not heard one with this modification. Maybe the people doing the service can help you with this. Triode operation can give a more open, sweet sound but output power will be reduced so speakerchoice is critical with a high impedance normally being more important than high sensitivity. I remember Audio Innovations triode monoblock, 15 watts, being able to drive the big Mirage M1's beatifully to medium listening levels, these speakers being 83 db only with a rather low but even impedance. Those monoblocks did the job a lot better than a McIntosh 100 watt poweramp.
Good luck with your sistem, it seems to be an interesting one.
Posted on: 08 June 2003 by HTK
Thanks Bjorne
Guilty as charged! I haven't had it serviced in over 10 years. I'm ashamed.
Thanks for the tip about the phono stage. I'm CD only now so I'll have a chat with them about that.
Cheers
Harry
Guilty as charged! I haven't had it serviced in over 10 years. I'm ashamed.
Thanks for the tip about the phono stage. I'm CD only now so I'll have a chat with them about that.
Cheers
Harry