How important are music and replay, taken together?

Dear Mike,

In a way I shall perhaps agree with you and yet not quite.

I have heard 50 K GBP hifi sets that certainly got in the way, and yet one can find selfless little units like the Tivoli Radio Model One that gets right out of the way for only about 90 GBP.

My own replay only involves a PC and a pair of Sennheiser headphones.

This is as non-interventionist a way of playing CD files [copied to Hard Drive] as I have yet encountered. I am sure it is not as fine as it might be, but so far it is easily the best I have had for music coming beautifully to my ears from a replay set.

I find that "the replay set every one raves about" but once auditioned is found deeply impressive of itself, is a complete failure in my book.

However "the" replay set that allows you to put a track on - which then captures you in the music - and you, without realising it, listened to the whole album, is a complete success for it has caught you in the rigtht way - the musical one - rather than with its Hifi impressiveness.

Hifi impressiveness soon wares thin, resulting in the early questioning of the Hifi quality of the presentation, and the subsequent attempt to try to improve this with upgrading the set in some way! But Hifi of the right sort is not noticed if the music is beautifully presented. It does however exist! And its pure musical form is much harder to define than the whizz-bang of huge speakers, massive dynamic presentation, and a sort of pin you to the chair up-front-ness! Its general first symptom is that the desire to upgrade leaves the set's owner!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
My own replay only involves a PC and a pair of Sennheiser headphones.

This is as non-interventionist a way of playing CD files [copied to Hard Drive] as I have yet encountered. I am sure it is not as fine as it might be, but so far it is easily the best I have had for music coming beautifully to my ears from a replay set.

Are you using the onboard sound chip or have you got a dedicated soundcard? If you're just plugging into the motherboard, a soundcard will easily be your best bang-for-bucks upgrade, Asus have just released an absolute belter for thirty-odd quid. When you get the itch...

PCI slot sound card.

Old but works very nicely - In fact it is so nice that I am reluctant to change anything in case I make it worse!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
PCI slot sound card.

Old but works very nicely - In fact it is so nice that I am reluctant to change anything in case I make it worse!

Words of wisdom! I keep thinking I ought to upgrade the computer PSU, but it sounds FAR better than it needs to as it is.

Music is made up of notes, each of which has two parts, the articulation and the sustain. In the articulation, the pitch, rhythm and dynamic are completely determined.

When a performer gets the articulation perfect, the sustain is perfect.

If the replay gets the articulation wrong, the music suffers.

I know of no device which gets the articulation right more faithfully than Naim equipment.

I consider my Naim to be a musical instrument, because of this quality, which has contributed more to my enjoyment of music than any other instrument I own. I can't image enjoying music without it.

As far as recordings go, I guess the DGG 4D recordings do a better job with articulation than anything else I have heard.

But that's me.

I'm not sure the notion of replay equipment as a 'musical instrument' really fits with the concept of high fidelity, but whatever makes you happy!

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
I'm not sure the notion of replay equipment as a 'musical instrument' really fits with the concept of high fidelity, but whatever makes you happy!

musical instrument: any of various devices or contrivances that can be used to produce musical tones or sounds.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
I'm not sure the notion of replay equipment as a 'musical instrument' really fits with the concept of high fidelity, but whatever makes you happy!

musical instrument: any of various devices or contrivances that can be used to produce musical tones or sounds.

I think your hifi is REproducing musical tones and sounds

In order to reproduce the contents of a CD, the speakers have to produce musical sounds.

If the speaker does not produce musical sound,
the system is broken.

Stereos have to reproduce and produce.

When the power amp sends the signal to the speakers, your reproducing system begins to interact with its physical surroundings. That is not on the recording. Something new is being produced.

That is exactly how my trumpet works, except on trumpet it happens at both ends of the instrument, instead of just one.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

I know of no device which gets the articulation right more faithfully than Naim equipment.

Mike

Naim equipment allows you hear articulation due to the electronic components used. For example, the capacitors Naim use sound punchy and dynamic. The downside is, they don’t do timbre. This isn’t a downside if you want to hear articulation, as the timbre would get in the way.

Amps, cd players, turntables and speakers are musical instruments, as are the electronic components used in them. The sound of a piece of hifi equipment can be transformed by changing a few internal components.

quote:

Originally posted by fatcat:
Amps, cd players, turntables and speakers are musical instruments, as are the electronic components used in them. The sound of a piece of hifi equipment can be transformed by changing a few internal components.

Yes, although some achieve much greater transparency and neutrality than others. A lot of popular and expensive hi-fi is more of a character act than a genuinely neutral and accurate representation of the signal.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
A lot of popular and expensive hi-fi is more of a character act than a genuinely neutral and accurate representation of the signal.

True. But there are hell of a lot of people around here wont hear a word said against the “Naim Sound”

quote:

Originally posted by fatcat:
True. But there are hell of a lot of people around here wont hear a word said against the “Naim Sound”

It's quite exciting with certain kinds of music. Perhaps you had to be there...

I have the view that if a HiFi produces an emotional, intellectual or visceral reaction in the listener and that reaction is different with different pieces of music then it has accomplished its goal. I have heard so called "neutral" systems and been left with no reaction at all other than to leave the room they were in or in the case of a certain amp throw it out the window.


My entry a few years ago into the quality HiFi market has opened out a full spectrum of music genres to me. I put this down to the HiFi letting me understand different genres by replaying the essence of the creators intentions, so for me the two, replay and music are as important as each other.



Dean...

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm a former Naim owner and the 'enthusiastic' presentation certainly caused me to sit and listen to music I wouldn't had it been reproduced objectively. I now listen via ultra-neutral electronics and headphones with the result that I only listen to music I like.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm a former Naim owner and the 'enthusiastic' presentation certainly caused me to sit and listen to music I wouldn't had it been reproduced objectively. I now listen via ultra-neutral electronics and headphones with the result that I only listen to music I like.

I don't think we mean the same things.



Dean...

I am going back to posting only REproductions of album/cd covers on that other thread.

I think that music needs no help to be exciting!

Any replay set that seems to ramp up excitement levels soon wears thin in my experience.

I remember saying something along these lines years ago at a nice Naim dealership, and saying that I prefered the 52 to the 82, and the CDS2 to the CDX. [With hindsight, I wish the 72 had still been made as it would have pleased me then as now, but it had just been withdrawn, and I was not looking for second hand in those days].

At the time I soon got the 52 and CDS2 by a combination of lucky timing and selling the bass.

Without getting to that level I would never have had the bench mark of such very fine replay to judge by how much things have improved at the lower eschelons of the Naim model hierachy, as well as the higher.

But like EW, I am now not using any Naim kit, and only headphones. [I still have the 72/Hi/140 combo, but am enjoying the headphone experience so much now that I cannot motivate myself to set them up].

Well fed headphones are a fantastic VFM solution if you want really fine quality that is sonically neutral, avoids overbaking the musical eccitement level, and is reminiscent of the quality that the old Olive Naim topline pieces could muster ...

It is even more articulate than the best of Naim from that time, and I regard articulation as crucial in presentaion of the aims of the performing musicians.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
I think that music needs no help to be exciting!

Good music needs no help...

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
I don't think we mean the same things.

No, I flatly object to electronics that try to put in what isn't really there.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
I don't think we mean the same things.

No, I flatly object to electronics that try to put in what isn't really there.

Please elaborate on how a system can add to the music? and how do you know this is not happening
with your present setup?



Dean...

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
Please elaborate on how a system can add to the music? and how do you know this is not happening
with your present setup?

By changing the tonal balance, introducing colourations (i.e. distortion) and accentuating certain frequencies.

All systems unavoidably do this a bit, but it's quite easy to hear the difference. The AKG 701s I listen to are extremely neutral tonally, it's easy to hear and it is confirmed by frequency response graphs. To be sure, they are a little on the bright side of absolutely neutral. Distortion and colourations are virtually non-existent. The soundcard/headphone amp I use - the Asus Essence STX - is pretty much neutral with ultra-low distortion, possibly a little warm but not so that it's a noticeable issue.

It's not difficult to hear when hi-fi systems are doing things other than accurately reproducing the signal.

The problem I have with this concept is you have no clue what the original recording sounds like unless you were at the recording session so neutrality in HiFi is really a red herring, its just a different form of colouration. I have heard a few so called neutral systems that at their heart are very clean sounding, they add this sheen to all music so clean is a form of colouration in my ears.



Dean...

I can see this line of inquiry will go nowhere fast :-)

Whats up Mike? its your thread steer it the way you want.



Dean...