Why bother buying an expensive CD player?

Posted by: Alex S. on 05 September 2002

Anyone who reads Vuk's delightful prose will know that I managed to con the State into subsidising the purchase of my CDS2.

The question is, why did I bother? This 6K CDP is one of the best I've heard, certainly one of the best of all those I haven't heard, yet it is very disappointing when compared to a just serviced (properly by the smiley Ray at Grahams) mid spec LP12 (AWLingo/NakedIttok/GaryiDV17D2/Linto/all sitting on the stand(s) of a well known manafacturer).

No matter how good the CDS2 is its still rather obviously a digital device. Compared to the record player its less involving, less subtle, less enjoyable (and lots less silly hi-fi terms too).

Okay, we all need a CD player because a bunch of prats in Japan, USA and Holland decided to make a shit load of money at our expense by forcing us to buy nasty, small, silver discs instead of large, lovely black ones, but why did I spend so much time and money trying to fool myself that the silver disc could ever come close to the black one?

Don't forget my LP12 is not tooled up with an Aro, DV Very Expensive, Phase 17, Groove, its a pretty humble combination (which well-serviced is better than any well-tempered), yet it laughably outperforms what is arguably the best silver disc spinner there is.

Would I not have been wiser, and the State richer, if I'd stuck with my CD3 and changed the clock? Or bought a Micromega Solo for next to nothing from anywhere but ebay? Or bought a Densen somethingorother? Or a Rega Starship Enterprise? Or bought that modded Sony thing Kit bought (shame it seems to have been broken since purchased BTW). I even thought I might stick my Toshiba DVD player on top of a huge Mana scaffold but then some sense prevailed. . .

So, do I now think of spending 12K on a CD12, or at least 12K on Naim's new flagship which must surely sail out of the gloom sometime soon? Levinson Reference anyone? Drill the CDS2 for phonos and stick Valhalla into it? Maybe not. Get a CDX? Sorry, didn't really like it. Perhaps the only answer is to jump on the LP12 and buy a P9 or a Clearplastic or Platine Vermin or Ill-Tempered or something. That should redress the balance.

Alex

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by seagull

CD’s are a triumph of marketing hype over quality. Everyone who didn’t know better bought into the promises of ‘perfect sound reproduction’ and ‘pop and click free music’ and the convenience and 'robustness' of the new medium (remember them spreading jam on a CD on Tomorrow’s World?).

Market forces have driven the LP into a side alley populated by geeks like many on this forum. Joe/Josephine Public picks up his/her <insert name here> Greatest Hits CD with the shopping from the supermarket and takes it home and plays it on their mini “hi-fi” system and is happy.

This leaves us, who should know better, with the choice of either limiting our listening to what we can get on vinyl or buying a CD player. Digital will always be digital no matter how good the player is. We, unfortunately, have analogue listening devices. Details are lost in the two transformation processes the music undergoes (analogue to digital an back again). We have no control over the first (A-D) but we do over the second (D-A) with our choice of CD player.

It makes sense to me to buy the best you can afford (or negotiate with the boss) whether that is a CD5, CDX or CDSII/XPS or whatever and try to buy music on vinyl first but you then have the fallback of buying it on CD.

Surely it’s the music that matters not the medium

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Paul Ranson

Rather controversially (it would appear...) I have no problem with CD. I understand that the CDS2 is a very fine player. So I would look elsewhere for the cause of your dissatisfaction.

Clearly you are uncomfortable with the CDS2, especially in the context of your current system, so sell it. Buy something cheap and competent to use for a while. So that you're surprised how good the performance is given the investment rather than vice versa.

I'd recommend seeking a s/h Linn Karik, but then I'm funny that way. Anyway 10% of CDS2 retail should sort it out.

Paul

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Alex S.

Hi shahreza,

Please reserve that shoe box - I really want it - see you soon I hope.

Hi James,

It is indeed a shame that inhabitants of the dark side spend their lives far too pissed and stoned to carry out this simple free upgrade. I may not agree with Steadyhand Paul's politics but I'm with him all the way when it comes to Ittok lifting. BTW how's that PA of yours?

Hi Paul,

I sure miss you and your fellow Lancastrians - have you heard the new Densen CDP (does it even exist over here yet)? Its supposed to be a real stunner.

Alex

PS Mark, thanks, I gave up on FEPs long ago - its REPs I want!

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by ebirah

Alex, nice to 'see' you around again.

I was just chatting to a well-known Forumite last night who doesnt use vinyl. I use both CD and vinyl since theres loads of music I just cant get on vinyl and its all about MUSIC isnt it? Nonetheless, since getting my CDI set up properly last year (ie flogging my Lingo to Weekes and losing the 'intererence') and getting some decent speakers, I have no preference at all between CD (now using CDS1) or LP (LP12/aro/Klyde/geddon/mana reference). Sure they sound different but equally enjoyable IMHO. Quite often I positively prefer CD. In my defence, the CDI was the first CD player I had heard that I could bear listening to for long and I did put off buying CD as long as poss - its just not possible for very long if youre into current music.

Steve

PS Regarding 'Lancastrians', I was there this weekend on the way back from Scotland and stayed at a friends house for the first time - WOW! Stunning countryside; 3 acres of garden; outbuildings larger than my own home....all for a pittance compared to London prices. I'm considering a move!

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Mick P

Alex

You earned your money and you can spend it on whatever pleases you.

Do not analyse your actions, do not even bother to read anymore postings on this thread. Just listen to the music and enjoy the thing.

Go out and buy yourself a better TT if you so wish.

Regards

Mick

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by reductionist

I think Alex is using his power as a forum stalwart to state facts about something without recieving the sort of replies anybody else would! The CDS2 is an excellent CD player and an excellent source! Alex is not getting the best from it because of his stands. He should buy a Fraim as it matches the CDS2 CD player and this will give him maximum performance. Anything else is not good enough according to Naim and who knows better? They did design the Fraim for the CDS2 after all.

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Nigel Cavendish

Either to buy it in the first place (you did audition it first?) or to tell us all what a berk you are for buying it anyway.

CD is without doubt the best thing since sliced bread and better than whatever the best thing before sliced bread was and you can stick vinyl up your bum along with infant mortality, ricketts and smallpox.

cheers

Nigel

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Thorsten

sliced bread is bad.

<i>The most important upgrade: Forget about your system. </i>

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Martin M

quote:
No matter how good the CDS2 is its still rather obviously a digital device.

Well, I think I might argue with the character of the CDS-2 being because its digital. After all, digital is only a means of conveying information, and plenty of people rave on about the sounds from their NAT01s, all of which has been digitized at some point in the signal path......

But I know where you are coming from. My record player can take music to places where the other sources don't really go (I don't have a NAT01).

My plan for my CD player is to keep it until it either breaks, or something mind-bendingly better appears. I would imagine that the former will happen before the latter. In the meantime, there are plenty of rather fine LPs out there...

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Martin M

quote:
He should buy a Fraim as it matches the CDS2 CD player and this will give him maximum performance.

Thank you. The scales have just fallen from my eyes.

BTW. How do you define 'match'?

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by garyi

I tell you what Paul lets not go down the mana route yet again eh?

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by reductionist

quote:
Originally posted by Paul D:
"relax, drink a beer, put some tunes on"

Absolutely no problem with that at all.

I think we all owe a vote of thanks to Reductionist for his intelligent and positive post. Perhaps he would like to delight us with the comparisons between a good turntable and the CDS2 that he so enjoys, that led to his conclusion. If he would favour us with an account of the FRAME v Mana test that he did, that would be still better.

Paul Duerden

In what way delight you? I am not capable of the prose displayed by others on this forum at times. I do not own a CDS2, it is very impressive in demonstrations, I would like to own one but I do not earn enough $

. It is fast and has amazing bass. There is no speed instability. There is no surface noise. A system with a CDS2 always is less tiresome to listen to than other CD players. I enjoy the music from a CDS2. I agree with the advertisements posted by Naim "closer to the sound in his head".

Also the CD player does not wear out. CDs do not wear out. It does not require yearly servicing. It is convenient. I can buy any music for it.

If you read my posting I did not say it is better than any record players. Just that it is an excellent source, is this incorrect in some way?

I do not wish to turn this into a stand thread. I have listened to Mana systems before they seemed better with record players.

Apologies if I upset you with my opinions.

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by P

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by reductionist

quote:
Originally posted by Martin M:

quote:
He should buy a Fraim as it matches the CDS2 CD player and this will give him maximum performance.

Thank you. The scales have just fallen from my eyes.

BTW. How do you define 'match'?

The design of the CDS2 was matched to the design of the Fraim (or the Fraim was matched to the CDS2). I believe this should allow the best sound quality because the Fraim and CDS2 are designed to work together like Naim audio pre amplifiers are matched to Naim audio power amplifiers.

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Alex S.

Of course! I should have been Fraimed.

Anyway, my record player makes me weep sometimes with the sheer beauty of the music it produces. The CDS2 doesn't, and it is rather pricey for something that 'sounds okay'.

Alex

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by reductionist

quote:
Originally posted by Alex S.:
Of course! I should have been Fraimed.

Anyway, my record player makes me weep sometimes with the sheer beauty of the music it produces. The CDS2 doesn't, and it is rather pricey for something that 'sounds okay'.

Alex

I do not know if the fraim would make you cry, perhaps when you pay for it?

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Greg Beatty

...I would buy a good CD player because I wanted a good CD player. The reasonable comparision would then be to other CD players.

Simple really.

If you've spent the dosh, fiddled with setting it up, and still *are not listening to it and enjoying it*, then sell it on.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by John

I agree with Alex, the CDS2 isn't as involving as a good TT. I found that I actually had to sit down and concentrate on what the CDS2 produced to enjoy it. Even then it was like most CD players leaving you looking for the remote so you can skip to the next track. My XX2/P9/Prefix offers a much wider range of musical expression regardless of both the music I put on and the quality of the recording.

Last year I went to a sterio show and listened to a CDS2/52Super/500/NBL. The 500 really revealed the digital character of the CDS2. My system at home (XX2/P9/52Super/135/SBLs) sounds alot better(musical flow). It will be interesting how Naim fairs with the new CDP. Can they bring the vinyl experience to the CD medium?

John

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Steveandkate

Hi Alex,
Well, as one of the few honest tax-paying builders in the world, i can honestly say that i have no problem with funding your CDS2, even if i can't yet go for one, and nor do I mind you getting funding to purchase the next one.
And Mick - How can you say he earned the money himself - was'n't it me and you who did the grafting ?

Steve
PS Anyone going to have a 52 for sale in the next few months..?

[This message was edited by Steveandkate on THURSDAY 05 September 2002 at 18:37.]

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Martin Payne

quote:
Originally posted by P:
LP12 on a Fraim anyone?

P,

that is a glitzy marketing image (or a mistake).

Both the LP12 and the powered items will be affecting the 82/52 pretty badly.

(Also, if the second Supercap is powering a Prefix, where is the Armageddon? And the cables?)

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Martin Payne

To answer the original question - you buy a CD player to play CDs.

If you almost always buy the vinyl, and occaisionally have to buy the CD, muttering about how market forces shouldn't be so forceful, then you made a mistake.

Otherwise, you were forced into it.

BTW, don't knock the advice re different stands. I reckon that the LP12, the CDSii & "all the other Naim stuff" have different requirements. Just because your system sounds better when moved en-masse to your current stands doesn't mean that the CDSii wouldn't be even better on something else. This isn't a dig at whatever you're using, as I can't remember off the top of my head.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Martin Payne

Alex,

no, wait ... it's all coming back to me. How could I forget?

Brands aside, I stick by the comment, though.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Jay

quote:
Why bother buying an expensive CD player?

The simple and short answer is.......because I have a large collection CD's and I'd like to hear the best from them.

Alex, I think your post is actually is mis-titled, it should have read "Why did I bother with CD?". You obviously don't think CD sounds as good as vinyl - fair enough. I just can't see why that makes the CDS2 a bad player or why you should consider changing it? Maybe CD has given all it can give? Maybe the CDS3 will change that?

Personally I'd like to know why you bothered with CD in the first place and why you bought a CDS2 when you have such a great vinyl front end. Think of the music you could have bought with the spare cash!

Jay

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by redeye

I agree..

We've done this subject to death by now surely?

We are stuck with CD. Thats why you spend oodles on a decent player...
No CD spinner on this planet (or any other) is going to seriously bother a decent LP12.

Its a medium thing

Posted on: 05 September 2002 by Mike Sae

I think the true heresy of this thread is that Alex claimed the P9, Clearaudio and Well Tempered are only as good as a CDP.

Also, Alex came up with comedy names for everything but the P9.

But seriously, has anyone compared the new P9 with a typical LP12(ie. Aformosia fluted base with Valhalla, creaky Ittok and slightly out of tune)?