why do classical musicians want to play j***?
Posted by: Thorsten on 05 August 2002
to whom it may concerns,
just received a copy of the 12 cellists of the berlin philharmonic playing classic broadway songs/film themes/spirituals/jazz called round midnight.
why? why do they do it? (apart from the fact that stuff like this sells good)
this record, although played on very high virtuosic level, is just another in a series of 10 cellists, five oboists, seventen flutists and other teams from renowned orchestras that give it a try at the so called "entertaining music".
it's another borer. articulation, phrasing. it's just not the real thing. they have till brönner with them (trp) and simon rattle doing a rap. brönner good, rattle... hmm. not sure yet. nice voice, though.
this seems to me to be music for the average doctor/lawyer with his subscription to the local opera who once in a while wants to go wild and thinks stuff like this is so 'jazzy'. i can imagine those guys sitting with their friends at dinner with a bottle of self-imported french red-chateaux, dipping their white bread in some extra vergine olive oil ("a friend of ours travels to a mill in the provence every januar and we get some bottles") and fleur de sel and telling their friends: "we do love jazz."
oh, i hate it.
btw. in the past i've found that hardly none of these concepts work. howard johnson playing jazz with ten other tubists, pooh. i do not even often listen to canadian brass, though they are fantastic. to me, that's an academic approach and after a while i get bored.
just received a copy of the 12 cellists of the berlin philharmonic playing classic broadway songs/film themes/spirituals/jazz called round midnight.
why? why do they do it? (apart from the fact that stuff like this sells good)
this record, although played on very high virtuosic level, is just another in a series of 10 cellists, five oboists, seventen flutists and other teams from renowned orchestras that give it a try at the so called "entertaining music".
it's another borer. articulation, phrasing. it's just not the real thing. they have till brönner with them (trp) and simon rattle doing a rap. brönner good, rattle... hmm. not sure yet. nice voice, though.
this seems to me to be music for the average doctor/lawyer with his subscription to the local opera who once in a while wants to go wild and thinks stuff like this is so 'jazzy'. i can imagine those guys sitting with their friends at dinner with a bottle of self-imported french red-chateaux, dipping their white bread in some extra vergine olive oil ("a friend of ours travels to a mill in the provence every januar and we get some bottles") and fleur de sel and telling their friends: "we do love jazz."
oh, i hate it.
btw. in the past i've found that hardly none of these concepts work. howard johnson playing jazz with ten other tubists, pooh. i do not even often listen to canadian brass, though they are fantastic. to me, that's an academic approach and after a while i get bored.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Matthew T
Thorsten,
It's probably because there are so many people who are partial to this kind of inane music and don't have the patience to appreciate (learn to appreciate) jazz or classical music.
I don't mind as long as I don't have to listen to it and it means classical musicians can make a living.
Matthew
It's probably because there are so many people who are partial to this kind of inane music and don't have the patience to appreciate (learn to appreciate) jazz or classical music.
I don't mind as long as I don't have to listen to it and it means classical musicians can make a living.
Matthew
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
"simon rattle doing a rap. brönner good, rattle... hmm. not sure yet."
Simon Rattle is a disaster. He's done a great job at building the Birmingham CSO. Now he's going to unbuild the Berlin PO.
He's going to grow old horribly, acting younger every decade.
There is a problem with these crossovers, Matthew. It doesn't help classical music at all. It sucks budget away from serious recordings (pr budget, too), and, as Thorsten suggests: a substantial part of the classical audience is there because nice people listen to classical music supposedly. However, if it's also OK to listen to Rattle swinging his hips, the symphonic concerts will lose support over time. Strategically it's a very dangerous course.
Herman
Simon Rattle is a disaster. He's done a great job at building the Birmingham CSO. Now he's going to unbuild the Berlin PO.
He's going to grow old horribly, acting younger every decade.
There is a problem with these crossovers, Matthew. It doesn't help classical music at all. It sucks budget away from serious recordings (pr budget, too), and, as Thorsten suggests: a substantial part of the classical audience is there because nice people listen to classical music supposedly. However, if it's also OK to listen to Rattle swinging his hips, the symphonic concerts will lose support over time. Strategically it's a very dangerous course.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Thorsten
herm,
i am sure rattle does not need me in order to defend him, but i rather think that his rap is an idea of the a&r-manager of bluenote/emimusic. drop a few names on a cover and people will go for it.
but afaik he hasn't started yet so let's see and wait how he behaves.
i am sure rattle does not need me in order to defend him, but i rather think that his rap is an idea of the a&r-manager of bluenote/emimusic. drop a few names on a cover and people will go for it.
but afaik he hasn't started yet so let's see and wait how he behaves.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Thorsten,
Rattle is probaby the most powerful conductor in the EMI stable. He can say no or yes to any idea the A&R managers propose.
His mission statement when he signed with the BPO was pretty clear: traditional symphonic concerts are dull; we're gonna boogie.
Herman
Rattle is probaby the most powerful conductor in the EMI stable. He can say no or yes to any idea the A&R managers propose.
His mission statement when he signed with the BPO was pretty clear: traditional symphonic concerts are dull; we're gonna boogie.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Thorsten
oh, i was not aware of that.
herm, if you're lucky, berlin runs out of money very shortly so they will have to sack him anyway. they are knackered thanks to some miserable dealings with real estate. some 2 billions euro debts (maybe three, who can tell the difference)
but you sure are right to think that they will rather let die any free theatre group or youth centre in order to keep rattle.
herm, if you're lucky, berlin runs out of money very shortly so they will have to sack him anyway. they are knackered thanks to some miserable dealings with real estate. some 2 billions euro debts (maybe three, who can tell the difference)
but you sure are right to think that they will rather let die any free theatre group or youth centre in order to keep rattle.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Well, obviously the Perlin PO is a major cultural institution. For most people interested in symphonic music the three best orchestras in the world are Vienna, Berlin and Amsterdam Concertgebouw. (I would make it four and add the Cleveland.)
You don't cut on your assets, and that's why you can't take away any money from the BPO (of course the idea is to shift the balance towards sponsoring), that would be most foolish. What they want to do, I guess, is to make the BPO more "part of the city", with a more diverse audience base, and the idea is Rattle is going to do this by being his own hip self. I think this is a sixties approach (crossover is being presented as so new, but this is actually the second coming - or third, if you count the thirties vogue of jazzy stuff) that won't work any longer.
People are both more cynical and more sophisticated these days. They want the real deal, not a Rimon Rattle rap. Someone like Riccardo Chailly is much more clued in to the spirit of the age. He plays Edgar Varèse, hardcore avant garde stuff with the Concertgebouw, take it or leave it; and he performs sizzling Italian opera in open air concerts, meticulously rehearsed and played with genuine feeling. That's what people of any age group part with their hard earned for.
Another problem with Berlin is there's a tad too many orchestras and operas since the unification...
Herman
You don't cut on your assets, and that's why you can't take away any money from the BPO (of course the idea is to shift the balance towards sponsoring), that would be most foolish. What they want to do, I guess, is to make the BPO more "part of the city", with a more diverse audience base, and the idea is Rattle is going to do this by being his own hip self. I think this is a sixties approach (crossover is being presented as so new, but this is actually the second coming - or third, if you count the thirties vogue of jazzy stuff) that won't work any longer.
People are both more cynical and more sophisticated these days. They want the real deal, not a Rimon Rattle rap. Someone like Riccardo Chailly is much more clued in to the spirit of the age. He plays Edgar Varèse, hardcore avant garde stuff with the Concertgebouw, take it or leave it; and he performs sizzling Italian opera in open air concerts, meticulously rehearsed and played with genuine feeling. That's what people of any age group part with their hard earned for.
Another problem with Berlin is there's a tad too many orchestras and operas since the unification...
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Former member
On similar lines, there's nothing that makes me want to throw a brick at my tuner like classical singers doing classic musicals.
Letting their hair down (allegedly) by applying their technique (often with that lovely wobbly vibrato) to stuff like Oklahoma, and often in the process putting on delightful American accents.
Shudder.
Letting their hair down (allegedly) by applying their technique (often with that lovely wobbly vibrato) to stuff like Oklahoma, and often in the process putting on delightful American accents.
Shudder.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Thorsten
mrs van otter comes to mind. (though only with costello-songs - the 'only' not in a diminuitive sense)
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Hi Thorsten
thanks for the e-mail a while back. I replied a couple days later, and the mail bounced back. The same day my computer crashed, beginning with my mailbox. Today I spotted the digital camera thread, and thought let's try it again, and again the mail bounced back, and again some havoc occured in my mailbox. So I don't know what it is with your address, but I'm never going to try again. Clearly your and my provider do't get along.
Herman
thanks for the e-mail a while back. I replied a couple days later, and the mail bounced back. The same day my computer crashed, beginning with my mailbox. Today I spotted the digital camera thread, and thought let's try it again, and again the mail bounced back, and again some havoc occured in my mailbox. So I don't know what it is with your address, but I'm never going to try again. Clearly your and my provider do't get along.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Tony L
quote:
just received a copy of the 12 cellists of the berlin philharmonic playing classic broadway songs/film themes/spirituals/jazz called round midnight.
why? why do they do it?
why? why can’t they do it?
There is nothing I hate more than classically trained musos attempting to play jazz or rock. They can’t do it, simple as that - I can’t think of anyone that has ever pulled it off with feeling except Can, and they were trained by bloody Stockhausen! Jazz and rock are both about feel, soul, intuition, and improvisation, exactly the things that classical training removes completely from musicians!
I’m not anti classical music at all, but it is totally out on its own in the music world, and should stay there. It is a totally different discipline. A classical musician has as much chance of playing Jazz as Paul McCartney has of writing classical…
Tony.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Tony, of course I can't agree with you here. Classical musicians are putting tons of soul into their performance (and I'm not thinking of the silly Glenn Gould singalong stuff).
It is a different way of handling music though, different approach to rythmic accents. But perhaps the real problem is classical musicians (woodwinds mostly) just jam a little to unwind, and sorry, real music doesn't occur while unwinding. The singers are of course a total disaster - but that's also because most of these singers have half the brains of your average principal woodwind player.
Herman
It is a different way of handling music though, different approach to rythmic accents. But perhaps the real problem is classical musicians (woodwinds mostly) just jam a little to unwind, and sorry, real music doesn't occur while unwinding. The singers are of course a total disaster - but that's also because most of these singers have half the brains of your average principal woodwind player.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Tony L
quote:
Tony, of course I can't agree with you here. Classical musicians are putting tons of soul into their performance
I wasn’t for a split second implying that there is no soul in classical music, good musicians and conductors can provide it in abundance, its just that these people seem totally unable to do anything similar with rock or jazz. Classical musicians are superbly suited to playing classical music! The briefest listen to Nigel Kennedy destroying the works of Hendrix or the accidental hearing of any ‘Classical Rock’ album will convince all but the musicians parents that such things simply should not be. I firmly believe that whilst say Richter and Ellington are both geniuses they should not be considered interchangeable.
Tony.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Former member
I'll disagree with you on the Kennedy/Hendrix thing. I saw him do a mixed Hendrix/Bartok/Bach concert in Tunbridge Wells some years back, and though I'd obviously rather have had the real thing, his improvisations of Hendrix were excellent - no hint of stiltedness, or fiddling by numbers, he really communicated originality and emotion.
The blue-rinse crowd (i.e. the majority of the audience) weren't too impressed though.
The blue-rinse crowd (i.e. the majority of the audience) weren't too impressed though.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:
Jazz and rock are both about feel, soul, intuition, and improvisation, exactly the things that classical training removes completely from musicians!
This is just not true at all (except for improvisation which is not an element of Western European classical music, while it is an essential element of Indian classical music, for instance). There is nothing inherent in European classical training that removes feel, soul, or intuition from musicians. It is true that there are some classical musicians who lack these qualities, just as there are some jazz and rock musicians who lack them as well.
Genres of music are languages (and sub-genres are dialects), and must be studied and learned. That said, it is the rare classical musician who speaks jazz well. This is because jazz is best learned by immersion, over a long period of time (years/decades), and most classical musicians who attempt jazz, having already spent years/decades honing their first language, don't have the time, and they lack the frequent opportunities to play with great jazz players in order to develop the skills.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Thorsten
hi,
i think that apocalyptica made a decent job of playing metallica. not great maybe but very decent. no lack of aggresiveness there.
generally i believe that classically trained musicians think that jazz or rock phrasing is something they can learn by having a radio in their kitchen. which is nonsense of course. it takes years of intense training to phrase brilliantly. rock music is different, it does not necessarily depend on virtuosity to be great music.
secondly i think that a cello, beautiful as it sounds, is less capable of producing the necessary sounds. with the 12 cellists i missed the most some sort of attack with spain by chick corea. it should be possible to play it jazzy though. it could be such a beautiful colour in jazz.
the other way round it works better, i've heard jazz musicians playing astonishingly well classical stuff simply because they do care about it. (i did not enjoy joe jacksons attempts at classical composin that much, btw)
overall i agree that both kind of musicians put a lot of soul into their music. however it's unfortunate that it is obviously nearly impossible to cross borders.
herm,
i will send you a very safe email soon. i did not know that firemail sucks. all those funny girlies still reach me... sigh.
i think that apocalyptica made a decent job of playing metallica. not great maybe but very decent. no lack of aggresiveness there.
generally i believe that classically trained musicians think that jazz or rock phrasing is something they can learn by having a radio in their kitchen. which is nonsense of course. it takes years of intense training to phrase brilliantly. rock music is different, it does not necessarily depend on virtuosity to be great music.
secondly i think that a cello, beautiful as it sounds, is less capable of producing the necessary sounds. with the 12 cellists i missed the most some sort of attack with spain by chick corea. it should be possible to play it jazzy though. it could be such a beautiful colour in jazz.
the other way round it works better, i've heard jazz musicians playing astonishingly well classical stuff simply because they do care about it. (i did not enjoy joe jacksons attempts at classical composin that much, btw)
overall i agree that both kind of musicians put a lot of soul into their music. however it's unfortunate that it is obviously nearly impossible to cross borders.
herm,
i will send you a very safe email soon. i did not know that firemail sucks. all those funny girlies still reach me... sigh.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Former member
Yesterday, a Radio 3 program from the Proms finished early. To fill in the spare ten minutes, they played some piano pieces and challenged you to name the composer.
They were very much in the style of Chopin on a rather off day. Quite pleasant, but unremarkable and very unoriginal.
They turned out to be by Billy Joel.
They were very much in the style of Chopin on a rather off day. Quite pleasant, but unremarkable and very unoriginal.
They turned out to be by Billy Joel.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Prompted by Alex's post a week ago the Shostakovich 2nd Piano Cto has been near the CDX the past few days.
Yesterday I played the middle movement - a sort of romanza - to my mother and asked the quiz question who is this? She couldn't tell. It's the weirdest kind of music: it's 80 % Chopin, there's some Russian stuff and there's orchestration details and trills lasting too long for Chopin's day.
I'm always terrifically moved by these forms of homage. Shostakovich saying to himself: I love Chopin so much, I wish there was more, I'm going to try and make some more. That's an unparalleled act of human and artistic kindness.
And then there's folks like Joel (there's lots of 'em) who water it down, because they're not creative. Recreating Chopin is tremendously hard work. And it's such a waste: if novices just bought a recording of the Chopin nocturnes. That would last them a lifetime.
And, to get back on topic: the pr budget put towards this Joel album was enormous. No end of adds, and airtime.
Herman
Yesterday I played the middle movement - a sort of romanza - to my mother and asked the quiz question who is this? She couldn't tell. It's the weirdest kind of music: it's 80 % Chopin, there's some Russian stuff and there's orchestration details and trills lasting too long for Chopin's day.
I'm always terrifically moved by these forms of homage. Shostakovich saying to himself: I love Chopin so much, I wish there was more, I'm going to try and make some more. That's an unparalleled act of human and artistic kindness.
And then there's folks like Joel (there's lots of 'em) who water it down, because they're not creative. Recreating Chopin is tremendously hard work. And it's such a waste: if novices just bought a recording of the Chopin nocturnes. That would last them a lifetime.
And, to get back on topic: the pr budget put towards this Joel album was enormous. No end of adds, and airtime.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Former member
Perhaps record companies think they can score a cross-over effect by getting classical musicians to record "jazz". Yes I am totally cynical.
The qualities required to play good jazz are so different from those needed for classical, I am not that surprised that classical musicians can't "make" it.
Having said that, I think what Kronos Qrt does is pretty damned good.
Hockman
The qualities required to play good jazz are so different from those needed for classical, I am not that surprised that classical musicians can't "make" it.
Having said that, I think what Kronos Qrt does is pretty damned good.
Hockman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Jez Quigley
It doesn't have to be so. Beethoven was a lover and master of improvisation, and gave many such performances. Oh for a time machine and a recording device!
"All systems are perfectly designed to get the results they get."
"All systems are perfectly designed to get the results they get."
Posted on: 06 August 2002 by Thorsten
hi jez,
you're right about the improvisation/cadenzas. but imo that's not the point. i get frustrated by the understanding of sound and phrasing. classic musicians seem to believe that it is enough to play jazz notes in order to create jazzy music. i do not even expect them to improvise like mad, but a little respect for the art of playing swing (the rhythm not the style) would be nice.
you're right about the improvisation/cadenzas. but imo that's not the point. i get frustrated by the understanding of sound and phrasing. classic musicians seem to believe that it is enough to play jazz notes in order to create jazzy music. i do not even expect them to improvise like mad, but a little respect for the art of playing swing (the rhythm not the style) would be nice.
Posted on: 09 August 2002 by Pete
quote:
Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:
why? why _can’t_ they do it?
There is nothing I hate more than classically trained musos attempting to play jazz or rock. They can’t do it, simple as that - I can’t think of anyone that has ever pulled it off with feeling except Can, and they were trained by bloody Stockhausen!
Since Steve Gadd and Tony Levin are both classically trained graduates of the Eastman School of Music, time to re-think your opinion!
Both of them can play pretty much anything, and do it well too.
Most examples are codswallop, granted. I never did like "Your Song" much, but that bloody awful recent charity rehash of it that was doing the rounds was a real "come back the ghastly original, all (well, a lot) is forgiven". Ugh.
Pete.
Posted on: 09 August 2002 by Thorsten
steve gadd started out on timpani and triangel? nice to know. he's a hell of a drummer.
btw, i think joe jackson has some kind of classical training. imo he's beyond doubt.
[This message was edited by Thorsten on FRIDAY 09 August 2002 at 16:05.]
btw, i think joe jackson has some kind of classical training. imo he's beyond doubt.
[This message was edited by Thorsten on FRIDAY 09 August 2002 at 16:05.]
Posted on: 09 August 2002 by Former member
Yehudi Menhuin (sp?) did OK playing some trad Jazz with Stephan Grapelli (again sp?). The album was Jealousy IIRC.
Then there is the Andre Previn jazz trio. Again it sounds OK to these ears, not that I "get" most Jazz.
Then there is the Andre Previn jazz trio. Again it sounds OK to these ears, not that I "get" most Jazz.
Posted on: 09 August 2002 by Former member
quote:
Originally posted by RichardN:
...not that I "get" most Jazz.
Careful what you say about Jazz, Richard....
...you never know when they're watching.
Posted on: 09 August 2002 by Thorsten
most of my ok-records get dusty in my shelf.