why do classical musicians want to play j***?
Posted by: Thorsten on 05 August 2002
to whom it may concerns,
just received a copy of the 12 cellists of the berlin philharmonic playing classic broadway songs/film themes/spirituals/jazz called round midnight.
why? why do they do it? (apart from the fact that stuff like this sells good)
this record, although played on very high virtuosic level, is just another in a series of 10 cellists, five oboists, seventen flutists and other teams from renowned orchestras that give it a try at the so called "entertaining music".
it's another borer. articulation, phrasing. it's just not the real thing. they have till brönner with them (trp) and simon rattle doing a rap. brönner good, rattle... hmm. not sure yet. nice voice, though.
this seems to me to be music for the average doctor/lawyer with his subscription to the local opera who once in a while wants to go wild and thinks stuff like this is so 'jazzy'. i can imagine those guys sitting with their friends at dinner with a bottle of self-imported french red-chateaux, dipping their white bread in some extra vergine olive oil ("a friend of ours travels to a mill in the provence every januar and we get some bottles") and fleur de sel and telling their friends: "we do love jazz."
oh, i hate it.
btw. in the past i've found that hardly none of these concepts work. howard johnson playing jazz with ten other tubists, pooh. i do not even often listen to canadian brass, though they are fantastic. to me, that's an academic approach and after a while i get bored.
just received a copy of the 12 cellists of the berlin philharmonic playing classic broadway songs/film themes/spirituals/jazz called round midnight.
why? why do they do it? (apart from the fact that stuff like this sells good)
this record, although played on very high virtuosic level, is just another in a series of 10 cellists, five oboists, seventen flutists and other teams from renowned orchestras that give it a try at the so called "entertaining music".
it's another borer. articulation, phrasing. it's just not the real thing. they have till brönner with them (trp) and simon rattle doing a rap. brönner good, rattle... hmm. not sure yet. nice voice, though.
this seems to me to be music for the average doctor/lawyer with his subscription to the local opera who once in a while wants to go wild and thinks stuff like this is so 'jazzy'. i can imagine those guys sitting with their friends at dinner with a bottle of self-imported french red-chateaux, dipping their white bread in some extra vergine olive oil ("a friend of ours travels to a mill in the provence every januar and we get some bottles") and fleur de sel and telling their friends: "we do love jazz."
oh, i hate it.
btw. in the past i've found that hardly none of these concepts work. howard johnson playing jazz with ten other tubists, pooh. i do not even often listen to canadian brass, though they are fantastic. to me, that's an academic approach and after a while i get bored.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Matthew T
Thorsten,
It's probably because there are so many people who are partial to this kind of inane music and don't have the patience to appreciate (learn to appreciate) jazz or classical music.
I don't mind as long as I don't have to listen to it and it means classical musicians can make a living.
Matthew
It's probably because there are so many people who are partial to this kind of inane music and don't have the patience to appreciate (learn to appreciate) jazz or classical music.
I don't mind as long as I don't have to listen to it and it means classical musicians can make a living.
Matthew
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
"simon rattle doing a rap. brönner good, rattle... hmm. not sure yet."
Simon Rattle is a disaster. He's done a great job at building the Birmingham CSO. Now he's going to unbuild the Berlin PO.
He's going to grow old horribly, acting younger every decade.
There is a problem with these crossovers, Matthew. It doesn't help classical music at all. It sucks budget away from serious recordings (pr budget, too), and, as Thorsten suggests: a substantial part of the classical audience is there because nice people listen to classical music supposedly. However, if it's also OK to listen to Rattle swinging his hips, the symphonic concerts will lose support over time. Strategically it's a very dangerous course.
Herman
Simon Rattle is a disaster. He's done a great job at building the Birmingham CSO. Now he's going to unbuild the Berlin PO.
He's going to grow old horribly, acting younger every decade.
There is a problem with these crossovers, Matthew. It doesn't help classical music at all. It sucks budget away from serious recordings (pr budget, too), and, as Thorsten suggests: a substantial part of the classical audience is there because nice people listen to classical music supposedly. However, if it's also OK to listen to Rattle swinging his hips, the symphonic concerts will lose support over time. Strategically it's a very dangerous course.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Thorsten
herm,
i am sure rattle does not need me in order to defend him, but i rather think that his rap is an idea of the a&r-manager of bluenote/emimusic. drop a few names on a cover and people will go for it.
but afaik he hasn't started yet so let's see and wait how he behaves.
i am sure rattle does not need me in order to defend him, but i rather think that his rap is an idea of the a&r-manager of bluenote/emimusic. drop a few names on a cover and people will go for it.
but afaik he hasn't started yet so let's see and wait how he behaves.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Thorsten,
Rattle is probaby the most powerful conductor in the EMI stable. He can say no or yes to any idea the A&R managers propose.
His mission statement when he signed with the BPO was pretty clear: traditional symphonic concerts are dull; we're gonna boogie.
Herman
Rattle is probaby the most powerful conductor in the EMI stable. He can say no or yes to any idea the A&R managers propose.
His mission statement when he signed with the BPO was pretty clear: traditional symphonic concerts are dull; we're gonna boogie.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Thorsten
oh, i was not aware of that.
herm, if you're lucky, berlin runs out of money very shortly so they will have to sack him anyway. they are knackered thanks to some miserable dealings with real estate. some 2 billions euro debts (maybe three, who can tell the difference)
but you sure are right to think that they will rather let die any free theatre group or youth centre in order to keep rattle.
herm, if you're lucky, berlin runs out of money very shortly so they will have to sack him anyway. they are knackered thanks to some miserable dealings with real estate. some 2 billions euro debts (maybe three, who can tell the difference)
but you sure are right to think that they will rather let die any free theatre group or youth centre in order to keep rattle.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Well, obviously the Perlin PO is a major cultural institution. For most people interested in symphonic music the three best orchestras in the world are Vienna, Berlin and Amsterdam Concertgebouw. (I would make it four and add the Cleveland.)
You don't cut on your assets, and that's why you can't take away any money from the BPO (of course the idea is to shift the balance towards sponsoring), that would be most foolish. What they want to do, I guess, is to make the BPO more "part of the city", with a more diverse audience base, and the idea is Rattle is going to do this by being his own hip self. I think this is a sixties approach (crossover is being presented as so new, but this is actually the second coming - or third, if you count the thirties vogue of jazzy stuff) that won't work any longer.
People are both more cynical and more sophisticated these days. They want the real deal, not a Rimon Rattle rap. Someone like Riccardo Chailly is much more clued in to the spirit of the age. He plays Edgar Varèse, hardcore avant garde stuff with the Concertgebouw, take it or leave it; and he performs sizzling Italian opera in open air concerts, meticulously rehearsed and played with genuine feeling. That's what people of any age group part with their hard earned for.
Another problem with Berlin is there's a tad too many orchestras and operas since the unification...
Herman
You don't cut on your assets, and that's why you can't take away any money from the BPO (of course the idea is to shift the balance towards sponsoring), that would be most foolish. What they want to do, I guess, is to make the BPO more "part of the city", with a more diverse audience base, and the idea is Rattle is going to do this by being his own hip self. I think this is a sixties approach (crossover is being presented as so new, but this is actually the second coming - or third, if you count the thirties vogue of jazzy stuff) that won't work any longer.
People are both more cynical and more sophisticated these days. They want the real deal, not a Rimon Rattle rap. Someone like Riccardo Chailly is much more clued in to the spirit of the age. He plays Edgar Varèse, hardcore avant garde stuff with the Concertgebouw, take it or leave it; and he performs sizzling Italian opera in open air concerts, meticulously rehearsed and played with genuine feeling. That's what people of any age group part with their hard earned for.
Another problem with Berlin is there's a tad too many orchestras and operas since the unification...
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Thorsten
mrs van otter comes to mind. (though only with costello-songs - the 'only' not in a diminuitive sense)
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Hi Thorsten
thanks for the e-mail a while back. I replied a couple days later, and the mail bounced back. The same day my computer crashed, beginning with my mailbox. Today I spotted the digital camera thread, and thought let's try it again, and again the mail bounced back, and again some havoc occured in my mailbox. So I don't know what it is with your address, but I'm never going to try again. Clearly your and my provider do't get along.
Herman
thanks for the e-mail a while back. I replied a couple days later, and the mail bounced back. The same day my computer crashed, beginning with my mailbox. Today I spotted the digital camera thread, and thought let's try it again, and again the mail bounced back, and again some havoc occured in my mailbox. So I don't know what it is with your address, but I'm never going to try again. Clearly your and my provider do't get along.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Tony L
quote:
just received a copy of the 12 cellists of the berlin philharmonic playing classic broadway songs/film themes/spirituals/jazz called round midnight.
why? why do they do it?
why? why can’t they do it?
There is nothing I hate more than classically trained musos attempting to play jazz or rock. They can’t do it, simple as that - I can’t think of anyone that has ever pulled it off with feeling except Can, and they were trained by bloody Stockhausen! Jazz and rock are both about feel, soul, intuition, and improvisation, exactly the things that classical training removes completely from musicians!
I’m not anti classical music at all, but it is totally out on its own in the music world, and should stay there. It is a totally different discipline. A classical musician has as much chance of playing Jazz as Paul McCartney has of writing classical…
Tony.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Tony, of course I can't agree with you here. Classical musicians are putting tons of soul into their performance (and I'm not thinking of the silly Glenn Gould singalong stuff).
It is a different way of handling music though, different approach to rythmic accents. But perhaps the real problem is classical musicians (woodwinds mostly) just jam a little to unwind, and sorry, real music doesn't occur while unwinding. The singers are of course a total disaster - but that's also because most of these singers have half the brains of your average principal woodwind player.
Herman
It is a different way of handling music though, different approach to rythmic accents. But perhaps the real problem is classical musicians (woodwinds mostly) just jam a little to unwind, and sorry, real music doesn't occur while unwinding. The singers are of course a total disaster - but that's also because most of these singers have half the brains of your average principal woodwind player.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Tony L
quote:
Tony, of course I can't agree with you here. Classical musicians are putting tons of soul into their performance
I wasn’t for a split second implying that there is no soul in classical music, good musicians and conductors can provide it in abundance, its just that these people seem totally unable to do anything similar with rock or jazz. Classical musicians are superbly suited to playing classical music! The briefest listen to Nigel Kennedy destroying the works of Hendrix or the accidental hearing of any ‘Classical Rock’ album will convince all but the musicians parents that such things simply should not be. I firmly believe that whilst say Richter and Ellington are both geniuses they should not be considered interchangeable.
Tony.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:
Jazz and rock are both about feel, soul, intuition, and improvisation, exactly the things that classical training removes completely from musicians!
This is just not true at all (except for improvisation which is not an element of Western European classical music, while it is an essential element of Indian classical music, for instance). There is nothing inherent in European classical training that removes feel, soul, or intuition from musicians. It is true that there are some classical musicians who lack these qualities, just as there are some jazz and rock musicians who lack them as well.
Genres of music are languages (and sub-genres are dialects), and must be studied and learned. That said, it is the rare classical musician who speaks jazz well. This is because jazz is best learned by immersion, over a long period of time (years/decades), and most classical musicians who attempt jazz, having already spent years/decades honing their first language, don't have the time, and they lack the frequent opportunities to play with great jazz players in order to develop the skills.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Thorsten
hi,
i think that apocalyptica made a decent job of playing metallica. not great maybe but very decent. no lack of aggresiveness there.
generally i believe that classically trained musicians think that jazz or rock phrasing is something they can learn by having a radio in their kitchen. which is nonsense of course. it takes years of intense training to phrase brilliantly. rock music is different, it does not necessarily depend on virtuosity to be great music.
secondly i think that a cello, beautiful as it sounds, is less capable of producing the necessary sounds. with the 12 cellists i missed the most some sort of attack with spain by chick corea. it should be possible to play it jazzy though. it could be such a beautiful colour in jazz.
the other way round it works better, i've heard jazz musicians playing astonishingly well classical stuff simply because they do care about it. (i did not enjoy joe jacksons attempts at classical composin that much, btw)
overall i agree that both kind of musicians put a lot of soul into their music. however it's unfortunate that it is obviously nearly impossible to cross borders.
herm,
i will send you a very safe email soon. i did not know that firemail sucks. all those funny girlies still reach me... sigh.
i think that apocalyptica made a decent job of playing metallica. not great maybe but very decent. no lack of aggresiveness there.
generally i believe that classically trained musicians think that jazz or rock phrasing is something they can learn by having a radio in their kitchen. which is nonsense of course. it takes years of intense training to phrase brilliantly. rock music is different, it does not necessarily depend on virtuosity to be great music.
secondly i think that a cello, beautiful as it sounds, is less capable of producing the necessary sounds. with the 12 cellists i missed the most some sort of attack with spain by chick corea. it should be possible to play it jazzy though. it could be such a beautiful colour in jazz.
the other way round it works better, i've heard jazz musicians playing astonishingly well classical stuff simply because they do care about it. (i did not enjoy joe jacksons attempts at classical composin that much, btw)
overall i agree that both kind of musicians put a lot of soul into their music. however it's unfortunate that it is obviously nearly impossible to cross borders.
herm,
i will send you a very safe email soon. i did not know that firemail sucks. all those funny girlies still reach me... sigh.
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by herm
Prompted by Alex's post a week ago the Shostakovich 2nd Piano Cto has been near the CDX the past few days.
Yesterday I played the middle movement - a sort of romanza - to my mother and asked the quiz question who is this? She couldn't tell. It's the weirdest kind of music: it's 80 % Chopin, there's some Russian stuff and there's orchestration details and trills lasting too long for Chopin's day.
I'm always terrifically moved by these forms of homage. Shostakovich saying to himself: I love Chopin so much, I wish there was more, I'm going to try and make some more. That's an unparalleled act of human and artistic kindness.
And then there's folks like Joel (there's lots of 'em) who water it down, because they're not creative. Recreating Chopin is tremendously hard work. And it's such a waste: if novices just bought a recording of the Chopin nocturnes. That would last them a lifetime.
And, to get back on topic: the pr budget put towards this Joel album was enormous. No end of adds, and airtime.
Herman
Yesterday I played the middle movement - a sort of romanza - to my mother and asked the quiz question who is this? She couldn't tell. It's the weirdest kind of music: it's 80 % Chopin, there's some Russian stuff and there's orchestration details and trills lasting too long for Chopin's day.
I'm always terrifically moved by these forms of homage. Shostakovich saying to himself: I love Chopin so much, I wish there was more, I'm going to try and make some more. That's an unparalleled act of human and artistic kindness.
And then there's folks like Joel (there's lots of 'em) who water it down, because they're not creative. Recreating Chopin is tremendously hard work. And it's such a waste: if novices just bought a recording of the Chopin nocturnes. That would last them a lifetime.
And, to get back on topic: the pr budget put towards this Joel album was enormous. No end of adds, and airtime.
Herman
Posted on: 05 August 2002 by Jez Quigley
It doesn't have to be so. Beethoven was a lover and master of improvisation, and gave many such performances. Oh for a time machine and a recording device!
"All systems are perfectly designed to get the results they get."
"All systems are perfectly designed to get the results they get."
Posted on: 06 August 2002 by Thorsten
hi jez,
you're right about the improvisation/cadenzas. but imo that's not the point. i get frustrated by the understanding of sound and phrasing. classic musicians seem to believe that it is enough to play jazz notes in order to create jazzy music. i do not even expect them to improvise like mad, but a little respect for the art of playing swing (the rhythm not the style) would be nice.
you're right about the improvisation/cadenzas. but imo that's not the point. i get frustrated by the understanding of sound and phrasing. classic musicians seem to believe that it is enough to play jazz notes in order to create jazzy music. i do not even expect them to improvise like mad, but a little respect for the art of playing swing (the rhythm not the style) would be nice.
Posted on: 09 August 2002 by Pete
quote:
Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:
why? why _can’t_ they do it?
There is nothing I hate more than classically trained musos attempting to play jazz or rock. They can’t do it, simple as that - I can’t think of anyone that has ever pulled it off with feeling except Can, and they were trained by bloody Stockhausen!
Since Steve Gadd and Tony Levin are both classically trained graduates of the Eastman School of Music, time to re-think your opinion!
Both of them can play pretty much anything, and do it well too.
Most examples are codswallop, granted. I never did like "Your Song" much, but that bloody awful recent charity rehash of it that was doing the rounds was a real "come back the ghastly original, all (well, a lot) is forgiven". Ugh.
Pete.
Posted on: 09 August 2002 by Thorsten
steve gadd started out on timpani and triangel? nice to know. he's a hell of a drummer.
btw, i think joe jackson has some kind of classical training. imo he's beyond doubt.
[This message was edited by Thorsten on FRIDAY 09 August 2002 at 16:05.]
btw, i think joe jackson has some kind of classical training. imo he's beyond doubt.
[This message was edited by Thorsten on FRIDAY 09 August 2002 at 16:05.]
Posted on: 09 August 2002 by Thorsten
most of my ok-records get dusty in my shelf.
Posted on: 12 August 2002 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by RichardN:
What I don't like (remember that I only have about 10 jazz albums):
... Miles Davis (I really tried to like this, but I don't) ...
What I like:
Fred Simon ...
Much thanks for the endorsement, although I do admit to very mixed feelings about superseding Miles Davis.
But I'll take it.
Posted on: 13 August 2002 by Pete
quote:
Originally posted by RichardN:
What I don't like (remember that I only have about 10 jazz albums):
Miles Davis (I really tried to like this, but I don't)
Tricky one, Miles has covered so much ground. Having read up on him, it looked like "Bitches Brew2 was the one for me, bought it, couldn't detect any music anywhere on it, gave it away, made mental note not to bother again. Cut forwards a couple of years, I'm in a record shop and the most fabulous music is playing, and I've got to get it. It turns out to be "Kind of Blue"... Subsequent experiments reveal that some of Miles' stuff I love, and some I don't get on with at all. I now love "Bitches Brew", but I still don't see why anyone would bother with "Sketches of Spain" over a decent rendition of the Concerto d'Aranjuez...
So, how much (and which) Miles have you listened to? Could well be the case that there's plenty of stuff he's done you'd love and you just haven't heard it yet.
Pete.
Posted on: 15 August 2002 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by RichardN:
I've tried to analyse what it is about your disc that makes it different to most Jazz. (I missed off the Charlie Haden stuff that I also own. This fits somewhere between the "just don't get" of Miles Davis and the "really like" of Dreamhouse.)
I think that it is the drumming that sets Dreamhouse apart, there isn't anything wrong with the Piano or Bass playing, but it is the way in which the drums and cymbals are played that differentiates it from most Jazz albums.
I'm sure Sarah Allen will be delighted to know that her drumming is the crux for you. It is a different approach from that found on many jazz records (although similar to the more European/ECM manner) in that it is informed by classical music, more coloristic and less strictly pulse-oriented, incorporating commentary and the illumination of the musical story.
But I'd like to think that the melodies, harmonies, the narrative and emotional content of the compositions -- the overall particular sensibility that defines my musical voice -- has something to do with why you like it.
Posted on: 16 August 2002 by Pete
quote:
Originally posted by RichardN:
"Kind of Blue" - the reissued correct speed CD.
"Amandla" - charity shop vinyl.
Neither of which does much for me.
I'm hardly a Miles expert or completist, but you might see if you can dig up a copy of something like Porgy and Bess to try: nothing like the two mentioned above...
Pete.
Posted on: 16 August 2002 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by RichardN:
I bought the album because Dreamhouse was THE stand out track on the Naim sampler.
Anyway, how about new album or a tour of the UK?
Richard, thanks once again for your very kind words; I'm gratified the music speaks to you.
A new album ... anytime Naim wants one. A tour of the UK ... anytime the UK wants me.
Posted on: 16 August 2002 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Lees:
I never tire of [Dreamouse], and I'll bang on about how good it is until a new album is commissioned by Naim. I'm not sure what the issue here is, as Fred seems hot to trot...we seem to be the losers here.
Nick, much thanks also for your unflagging and spirited support, it means quite a lot to me.
I hope you've indicated your enthusiasm directly to Naim, apart from this forum, and assuming you have, I'm curious as to whether you've had any response from them. As I've said, the end-user's voice is much louder than mine in this matter, and it can never hurt to speak up again.