Which processor?

Dazren,

My heartfelt advice is WAIT. This is what I believe Naim are doing.

The hi-def formats have not shaken themselves out. The standards are still developing and new disc formats are still being introduced; read about a new HiDef disc based on a red laser last week.

In your place I'd buy something like a cheap 2nd hand Yamaha processor that can amplify the centre and rears, as well as handling the processing. Live with it for a while and watch the market - then start demoing gear using this as a baseline. If you buy the right box it will allow you to put in independent power amps as you pick what you want. This is the route I went a number of years ago, finally putting in the AV2 when it came on the market; in the meanwhile having demoed processors from Meridian, Lexicon et al.

I take it your main speakers are Wilson Benesch? Have you been into your dealers to listen to a WB based 5.1 setup?

For info I do NOT believe Naim are intending to do any further AV2 algorithm upgrades. I remember 4 years or so ago contacting Naim about DTS 96/24 to be told it would be in within 6 months, it never arrived. That said I have never regretted my AV2/DVD5 choices, but the landscape is different for you.

It would be nice if Naim went on the record as to their views on the market.

M

Whoops.

quote:

The obvious choice would be an AV2 but my only concern is that it does not support the new hi-def formats (e.g., DTS HD Master Audio, DTS High Res Audio, Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD) nor THX formats.

Dazren,

There's no possibility that the AV2 would be able to decode the new high definition audio formats with a firmware upgrade. To transmit these formats digitally for decoding in an external processor requires a HDMI connection.

The AV2 has a set of multi-channel analog inputs. If you pick up a high definition player with multi-channel analog outputs; just get the player to decode the high res formats internally and connect it up with the processor using a set of analog interconnects.

Having said that, even plain dolby digital off a blu-ray disc via conventional coaxial digital sounds noticeably better than DVD due to the higher bitrate used on these discs.

Mr Underhill - Thanks for that. I will probably hang tight and make do with 2 channel until things settle down. Hopefully by that time naim would have an AV3 out along with a Blue Ray/HD-DVD Player! Now wouldn't that be nice!

Allan - Thanks for the info. I was wondering whether naim might have done a firmware upgrade to accept new formats along with a hardware upgrade to offer HDMI 1.3 as a stopgap to AV3 - I suppose the chance of this would be very slim and that efforts would rather be put into an all new AV3. The analogue inputs route is certainly an option and letting the player do all the decoding. Point noted on bitrates - did not think of that.

My guess is that Naim are taking a long, hard look to see whether they actually want to be part of the AV scene at all. Or whether they want to revert to hifi only.

They only have a handfull of AV products at present - DVD5, n-Vi, AV2, Nap175 and a centre speaker (the n-Sub is needed for their SL2 speaker). Most of these products are severely limited by the quality of the scalers built into other manufactures' products (such as plasmas and projectors).

Its going to take a massive investment (in R&D and production start-up) to come up with world-class products to deliver better pictures/sound than the current crop of Blu-ray and HD-DVD players - even the sound from these players is becomming "good". The next generation of these players (over the next 6 months) will be even better.

Add in the uncertainty re Blu-ray v HD DVD v Red-ray and Naim will have difficulty knowing which way to jump for the next 5 years.

A bit like with CD back in 1983. Naim held back until they could produce something worthwhile (the cds1). The infamous 555 didn't appear until more than 20 years after Philips and Sony launched their "perfect sound for ever" format............

My advice? If you like what Naim currently does, buy the existing products and enjoy. If you don't like what Naim currently does, look elsewhere - there is unlikely to be anything worthy of the tag "world-class" within the next 5 years.

Cheers

Don

Hi there,

I wouldn't hold your breath for a new processor or DVD (hi-def) player from Naim in the near future.

The current uncertainty around the market, in-conjunction with the substantial investment to bring such products to market would make smaller specialists, such as Naim, very vulnerable to these market transitions.

Naim have made very good AV products so far, for maturing markets. If you wish to be an early adoptor of such technologies, I'm afraid you'll have to look towards the larger, more mainstream organisations for the foreseeable future.

Roy.

I totally agree with Don and Roy. I bought a DVD5 / AV2 some time ago to go with my all-Naim system and I am more than happy. However, by current standards the set up is already starting to date badly and in a few years time will probably be a museum piece in terrms of AV gear. If you are keen to 'keep up' with things then you are better off buying budget gear that you can afford to replace at frequent intervals - that is unless you have limitless amounts to spend.

How long could any company survive if it remained hifi only?

The market has gone AV.

If Naim has any sort of business model it needs an AV presence.

Hifi is a decreased market. I know it is healthy, but I see Naim as bigger than that.

Hello there General! Good to see you posting again!

I do agree with you; if they just relied on stereo I think Naim would be in trouble, but they're smarter than that!

I think they're right to be cautious - although their DVD5 & AV2 may be regarded as old hat, nevertheless on sound quality they still shine.
Let's trust them to know how to develop their business in the right way...

G,

I agree with your main point.

Speaking to a friend in the trade he sells more screens than HiFi, but the whole HiDef situation is uncertain. Unlike DVD, which was a one format market, HiDef could swallow a lot of R&D with no return.

Frankly I don't mind HD-DVD or BR, I just wish one would hurry up and die!

M

Hi Tony. Never really went away just doodling in the background.

My main concern, whihc I have now learnt, is that Naim take far too long to bring new products to market.

That may well have been good enough 15 years ago in the hifi world, but in this day and age??

For example, I find myself wandering back over to the Arcam camp for a look. (I'm sure Alastair would be happy to hear the whispers of a potential visit. Again.)

Imho they are a comparable operation to Naim, and yet they are far more active in bringing new products to market, that crucially, also appeal to me.

Their latest DVD 139 being a perfect example.

Why do I hang onto dated Naim kit when I could go back to Arcam with arguably better products in certain arenas?

Arcam have in the 139 a potential DVD5 beater. I'm looking at the whole package in this instance, rather than focus on just the sound.

That's a coincidence Guy! I currently have Signals' demo Arcam 139 on home trial! It's a lovely thing, not sure about it in comparison to the DVD5 though.

I'm still favouring using a dedicated video processor, rather than built in to either the display or the source component. I'm currently using a Lumagen which is excellent & also enables me to run a single HDMI cable to my projector.

tonym,

what are your thoughts about the Arcam, picture-wise? I read many good things about it but never got a chance to demo one at home. also: are there any external video processors you would recommend? my knowledge in this area is close to nothing

quote:

Originally posted by {OdS}:
tonym,

what are your thoughts about the Arcam, picture-wise? I read many good things about it but never got a chance to demo one at home. also: are there any external video processors you would recommend? my knowledge in this area is close to nothing

The Arcam's fine picture-wise, as you would expect for c.£1800s-worth of player. But it's not obviously better than my trusty old £150 Oppo 970 through my Lumagen processor. Admittedly the Oppo's a bit of a giant-killer.

There are other possible combinations I could try - Oppo less Lumagen vs. Arcam using the latter's internal video processing, but there's no point really.

I've only got experience of the Lumagen HDQ processor, which although completely unfriendly to set up (you really need an expert to do this IMO) is a great bit of kit. Lumagen are a specialist company who offer excellent support and very regular downloadable software updates.

Thanks tonym. Theses little things really look like the kind of hardware I'm looking for! And the pricing is another good news, too.

quote:

Theses little things really look like the kind of hardware I'm looking for! And the pricing is another good news, too.

I have a feeling that a new Lumagen scaler would set you back about a grand for the basic model and three grand for their newer model.

But I would be delighted to find that I am wrong - cause then I might be able to justify one.

cheers

Don

I used to have a DV27A which I really loved. Now a DVD5.

I'd be interested in your thoughts Tony with the 139.

I'll probably wait out this generation of kit before upgrading again. Probably.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
I have a feeling that a new Lumagen scaler would set you back about a grand for the basic model and three grand for their newer model.
Don

Well, I'm interested in the most basic model offering 1080p upsacling. It's priced at 1199$ (590£), wich seems quite reasonable to me I don't intend to go the top-of-the-line way because I feel like spending 4000$ in scaling SD is a bit pricy, considering HD sources will give better results in in the not to far future at decent prices.

quote:

Well, I'm interested in the most basic model offering 1080p upsacling. It's priced at 1199$ (590£), wich seems quite reasonable to me

Thats good news. £590 is a justifyable price.

Is this a UK quoted price or is it a US price converted to UK at the current exchange rate?

My experience is that US products sell over here for the same number of ££ as they sell for $$ in the US.

But if Lumagen have a worthwhile model at £600 in the UK I would be inerested.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Is this a UK quoted price or is it a US price converted to UK at the current exchange rate?

This is the price as read on their US website and converted to Pounds via Google. I'm looking forward to know about prices here in Switzerland, which depend on their German reseller.

There is much my Lumagen can potentially do that I don't require at the moment but I needed to get that particular model for the number of DVI inputs I required.

The thing I like about having a separate processor is the flexibility you get, and the upgrade potential all the time the product's current.

In the three years or so I've had the Lumagen there have been probably six software updates, some to correct small bugs but most to improve the product, some quite drastically. For instance, they added 1080P processing to the spec., it being originally 1080i.

I may be incorrect in this but I very much doubt if any display or DVD player with inbuilt scaler/processor has the ability to have its software updated in this way, and few DVD players or satellite receivers accept video inputs from other AV sources (my old TagMclaren being a noble exception!)

tonym,

This all seems very promising. Quite the kind of support I really appreciate from a hardware manufacturer. I'm just wondering if any SD upgrade really makes sense these days. I know I can get much more out of my plasma screen and I'd be glad to see my SD collection upscaled to 720p. HD needs no upscale though, and sounds so much better, thanks to the almost lossless audio compression used. Not an easy choice to be made!!!

Where did you buy the Lumagen from, if you don't mind me asking, Tony?

Hi there Jon.
I think there are only two companies who are agents for the Lumagen in the UK. Mine came from Liam at Progressive A.V. but I've also received help & advice from Graham at Convergent.

Another point to make about such dedicated processors - The advantage isn't just better quality in both out and out scaling and deinterlacing terms, but also in terms of additional post-processes they offer such as y/c delay adjustment, gamma correction, colour error filtering etc etc.

I've got Sky HD & the difference between SD & HD on my setup is far less apparent than on other displays I've seen. Sure, HD tends to be superior but with good quality source material there ain't much in it!

There's also a clever dodge with the Sky HD box where you fool it into producing an interlaced output. The deinterlacing from the Lumagen does a far better job than the stuff in the Sky box!

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
My experience is that US products sell over here for the same number of ££ as they sell for $$ in the US.

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
Where did you buy the Lumagen from [] ?

The manufacturer claims to ship worldwide from the US for final consummers. I don't know about shipping fees but I guess this is the cheapest way to get one of those kits! The VisionHDP sales for 1190$ (840€) on the US website while it will cost 1290€ from the German reseller.