Back in the Game

Posted by: Greg Beatty on 29 December 2002

With our baby just a few weeks ago, my wife and I decided that it was now-or-never on the hi-fi. We have it on almost constantly with music or the TV playing through it so my wife has no qualms smile Off to Soundworks, the only local Naim dealer that stocks the Nait and the 112/150, for a dem. They also stock Totem, the only speakers I have heard locally that interest me.

Demoed the 112/150/FC2 combo with a CD5 as source all sited on a Fraim. The Fraim looks much smaller in person that I had gathered from the photos and is stunning in the flesh. May have to raid the furnature budget for one of these wink

First up - a pair of Totem Sttafs. Nice. Doing the Naim stuff as I remembered but was also conveying a sense of space and insight into details that my Sony ES (cough cough) doesn't begin to. Turned the wick up a bit and, um, well...the trebble got hashy. Not a good sign. Our room is on the largish side (about 3,000 cubic feet) and so we would hit the "hashiness threshold" pretty quickly.

Turned out that was a pair of Naim Allae's in the room so had to give 'em a try - natch. OK - better - fuller sound that the little Totems (about half the width of the Allaes) but got "hashy" at about the same volume level. They also didn't do the "space" thing as well, but they were not optimally positioned by any means. As a check, I replicated the "hash" test with two more CDs and up - still there. Drats - I'm *finally* ready to get back into the game, and the kit is doing something that I do not want in my home at any price.

The dealer then popped in - we chatted - and his idea was to try the Totem Hawks. These are one model up from the Sttafs, but have a metal-dome tweeter. I was skeptical, but he said this dome stays clean at much higher levels than the tweet in the Sttaf. To make a long story short, he was right. These puppys sound clean and not just in the trebble. Richer sound throughout the range with gobs of shading and accurate tonality. This was "different league" kindof stuff. I wanted to turn the volume up instead of down and hear more. Very nice.

He also said that he found the Nait 5. On the phone he said the floor model Nait had been sold but turned out it was in another demo room.

So in went the Nait. Hum...OK - not quite the extension of the more-than-twice-the-price combo, but there was not the "different league" difference that there was between the Sttaf and the Hawk. And just how much of the difference is down to the FC2? I haven't found out as he didn't know how to wire the FC2 into the Nait (!). But never mind - I wasn't FlatCap shopping and the 112/150 combo is almost twice the price of the Nait.

With a leisurely demo of over 2 hours, switching between the combo and the Nait and between speakers, I left the shop with the Nait 5 and the Hawks.

The combo is playing behind me as I write this, fronted by an ES-series CD player. During the demo, we switched in a $500ish NAD CD player and the result was underwhelming. So I didn't have the highest expectations taking the Nait and Hawks home, but the ES series CD player does not seem to be letting down the side. We listened to music until midnight smile Not all the bass I would like, but a good bit more than I had before (ES Sony into ProAc response 2's).

The Nait seems to be doing its thing and it is sitting on a DIY MDF/spike arrangement on top of a (large) TV. Certainly not a Fraim by any means but it seems happy for now.

Also not using NACA 5 for now as the dealer was out. Am using some multi-strand Kimber cable that was quite cheap when I got it from my local Linn dealer. It has multiple wires that are grey and black and are "weaved" - anyone know anything about this wire?

- GregB

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Posted on: 29 December 2002 by Phil Barry
The wire's OK. I used it biwired for a while with an MF A1. I never used it with my Naim stuff, though.

Sounds like we share a prejudice about sound; we both seem to hate 'hash'. Power supply and source upgrades fix this. FC2 or hicaps would be good first steps, though, since I couldn't improve the hashiness of my old Sony X77ES without going to the CDS level.

Of course, a good LP system is a lot cheaper than hash-free CD.

Enjoy your purchase and child....uh oh...jelly on the CD5....

Regards.

Phil
Posted on: 29 December 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
It has multiple wires that are grey and black and are "weaved" - anyone know anything about this wire?

The 'weaved' bit sounds bad. Take care. As short as possible is probably best.

(Weaved implies relatively high capacitance/metre, low inductance/metre. Without some inductance Naim amps don't like to drive large capacitances, so a short length will minimise the potential problem)

Paul
Posted on: 29 December 2002 by Greg Beatty
In researching DIY speaker wire a few months ago, it seems the idea of the 'weave' is to reduce RFI. Don't know if this wire is high capacitance, high inductance, or what.

Sounds OK for now. I'll see if I can borrow some NACA 5 to compare.

- GregB

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Posted on: 30 December 2002 by Greg Beatty
The Nait and Totems are doing their thing but the overall sound is 'light and bright' - instruments and voices lack body and the highs, while clean (yea!), are overdone.

Following up on Paul Ranson's note, and looking at the Kimber site, it appears my speaker cable is 4VS in 5 foot runs. Finding a review on HiFi Choice, they note that the cable is highish capacitance and low inductance. Paul is right smile

So I'm off to my dealer tonight to borrow a run of NACA 5 and also to 'head to head' my Sony ES CD player against the CD 5 and the Rega Planet. I will also bring along my Kimber and see what it sounds like in their system (Opps! should be 'sistem').

I'm really trying to get all of this sorted before the baby arrives eek I am also considering the Allaes, but I'm not favorably disposed by what I've read on the forum (one poster moved to a larger place and had lack-of-bass problems like I have). I will also try the NACA 5 in my system with my ProAc response 2's. If that goes well, the Hawks could be traded for more Naim bits and/or a new DVD player.

- Greg

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Posted on: 30 December 2002 by Greg Beatty
Thanks Nick for the suggestions.

I did a head-to-head of the ProAcs against Totem in the shop a few months ago, and while the ProAcs are very good, they were not nearly as engaging as the Totems. The ProAcs, mine and the 1 SCs I tried, sounded clinical - they revealed everything but only touched my head. The Totems conveyed the meaning and feel of the music much better, I just wanted to keep listening. So I doubt I will end up using the ProAcs as my main speakers, but they are *very* good when they sing. We'll see.

A friend has a CD 3.5 and I had a CD 3 with my previous system (CD3/72/hi/140). I never got along with this setup, but had dodgy mains that I couldn't do anything about. I've heard the 3.5 with and w/out a *-cap in other settings and, while it does what it does well, I'm bothered by what it doesn't do. In contrast, I really like the sound of the new kit. So it would need to be a CD 5 for me.

Also, the CDX, from reading on the Forum, seems very picky about supports. The supports for my system, due to space constraints, are DIY spikes/MDF or glass mini shelves on top of a projection television (!). So I need kit that can do a decent job when, basically, sitting on a sideboard. I would be very nervous of a CDX in this context.

- GregB

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Posted on: 30 December 2002 by Jay
Hi Greg

quote:
So I need kit that can do a decent job when, basically, sitting on a sideboard. I would be very nervous of a CDX in this context.



Don't automatically discount the CDX. It really is a whole heap better than a CD5 (with any cap)in my experience. Best to try it at home if you can to be sure.

If I was in your situ I'd seriously consider the CDX2/112/150 combination (or 2nd hand CDX). Keeping your ProAcs for the meantime because you can always upgrade then along with a FC2 or hicap at a later date. Your ProAcs are only reflecting what's in front of them.

I'm a bit nervous of your experience with the Allaes.....doesn't sound like they were set-up correctly to me - especially ina dem situation. You've really got to set-up that Intro/Credo/Allae range pretty carefully. In my experience it can make a HUGE difference - not just to the bass they produce but in terms of extracting detail and basically sounding a lot more coherent.

So that's my advice mate - save your money on the speakers and spend the money upfront. I think it'll give you better long-term bang for buck.

Enjoy!

Jay

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Posted on: 30 December 2002 by Greg Beatty
This was a 5 second dem folks.

Kimber in - heard it for a bit to get acclimated.

17ft of NACA 5 in - HA HA HA HA HA !!!

Un-freaking-believable!!! The dealer brought in a twice-the-price cable to also try and agreed within 10 seconds that the NACA 5 was better. His cable was better than the thin and bright-sounding Kimber, but sounded bass-light and chesty (at the same time!) compared to the openness of the NACA 5.

I brought the demo set of NACA 5 home and...Wow!!! Jaw-dropping stuff. Wife agreed - mucho better.

Also took my ES Series Sony to the shop to see if the source was the problem and it was not embarrassed by the CD 5. Bettered by the CD 5 yes - but not embarrassed. The dealer agreed - “You got a good one.”

I will set up the ProAcs next to the Totems and we’ll see. It could very well be that the Kimber was giving the system a light balance and I was shooting the messenger in wanting to replace the ProAcs. I elected to go ahead and change speakers based on a head-to-head of my ProAcs against Totems in the store a few months ago. I’ll see if the difference is still there at home.

Also, the recommended CDX2/112/150/FC2 system a post or two earlier would be mucho more costly that where I am now ($369 CD player that is already paid for and Nait 5).

- GregB

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Posted on: 31 December 2002 by Rockingdoc
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Greg Beatty:
he didn't know how to wire the FC2 into the Nait.
Also not using NACA 5 for now as the dealer was out.



Sounds like you need a new dealer. Do Naim know about this?

malcolm
Posted on: 31 December 2002 by garyi
Greg, until the donation of my old rack my step dad had his CDX piled on top of the 72/140 which were next to each other, which in turn sat on a mini disk player which was on a tape deck.

Suffice to say the rack looked nicer, but as usual I could detect no sound differences whatsoever once removed from its precarious surroundings.

So in the contect of me the CDX is not fussy.
Posted on: 31 December 2002 by Greg Beatty
malcolm -

quote:
He didn't know how to wire the FC2 into the Nait.
Also not using NACA 5 for now as the dealer was out.

Sounds like you need a new dealer. Do Naim know about this?

Malcolm


A 'real' Naim dealer would be great, but there isn't one in sight. When I was in England last year, I realized just how spoiled my English friends are wink Almost as many Naim/Linn dealers about as there are Starbucks here in the states.

Also, things are not as bad as it may read. They had two pairs of NACA 5 in the shop, both terminated by NANA. The white set was sold just before christmas and I have the black set on loan until mine arrives. Mine will also be ordered to length and terminated by NANA. Given that there are no experienced Naim dealers in the area, the order-as-needed-from-NANA method gives me the most confidence that I'm getting the genuine article (and not some dealer's idea of better banana plugs, for instance) terminated correctly. All in-store demos were done with NACA 5, but they will be NACA-less until my set arrives.


garyi -

Glad your step dad has had a 'no fuss' experience with the CDX. I had a *very* fussy CD3/72/hi/140 setup that forum members are probably sick of hearing about at this point and I have no interest of repeating that experience. Do a search on CDX and you will no doubt find quite a few threads about the CDX being Naim's fussiest CD player as regards supports. I also really like what the new kit does and so am content to pitch camp there. A 2nd-had CDX would be better VFM, if it was what I wanted.

- GregB

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