Power Consumption

This doesn't answer your specific question but Jon Honeyball tested several items of Naim equipment for power consumption in this thread.

John.

Or page E19 of the Owner's Manual - 10VA.

So turn it off when not in use. In times where fuel price is so closely related to the cost of food, and food crises going on through-out the third world, there is no longer any justification at all in any form of easily avoidable energy wastage.

I have been turning my set off for years, and find no insurmountable issue with running it from cold in terms of enjoying its function.

If your particular models are uncomfortable from cold, for you, then change them for models that are comfortable. Plenty of Naim pieces are satisfactory from switch on, so choose carefully.

The official Naim advice to leave on components multiples of ten watts [in quiescent state] is beginning to look irresponsible, and will soon be seen as quaint.

Waste is immoral, and most of all, hurts the poorest first, but will soon be hurting us all.

Think before wasting finite resources.

George

I think I'd also turn off my Naim gear on a daily basis, if it wasn't for the nasty, loud 'plop' Naim amps push through the speakers, when turned on/off!

I've read somewhere that it doesn't cause any harm, but it doesn't sound (and look) that healthy to me giving my speakers this kinda powerboost every day.

Back in the time when I had a Cyrus or Sonneteer amp, I turned on the amp when I came home from work, and turned it off when I went to bed.
(no nasty, loud 'bang' and within 30 minutes or so it was ready for action)

regards,
Alco

Dear Munch,

Doing a bit is no excuse for other waste be it throwing food in the bin, leave lights on, or, perish the thought, leaving a Hifi on when not in use.

This is not political correctness, but merely survival, not for you or me but for the children. Basically by wasting easily saved resources now we make life harder for our future generation.

To bequeath them an exhausted world is immoral.

In a few years we shall have to do much more than we are now, and if we do not take the initiative ourselves, today, not next week, or next year, but today, the governement of the day will eventually do so for us with legislation.

I have no children and even I can see that this is no longer arguable.

George

How we are supposed to do anything relevant in the face of the actions of the chinese etc is a moot point.

Dear Jon,

We must lead by example. Then we can bring some moral pressure on them. Otherwise the world if on a definite course to Armageddon.

I tend to the view that the world is likely to go that way in any case, but it would be wrong not to try in every way we can.

I also think is by now a probably moral imperative that all designers of electronics should allow for almost instant start up at an acceptable level of performance. Naim mostly does this in my experience. It is about three years since I started to always turn of, and indeed this did not cause me difficulty, and I am not the only person I know who has adopted this policy, in the face of the quaint advice to leave it on always. That might have done at one time, but times are moving on and we need to move with the times, or be like the dinosaurs, and ...

George

I'm leaving mine on - businesses leave hundreds of computer servers switched on and they don't even play music; a Naim amp being left on serves a useful purpose - a file or print server left on in an empty office servers no useful purpose that I can understand (doesn't serve much useful purpose when an office is full with silly people like me writing stupid documents that nobody ever reads). I agree with munch about the car and I really don't see the point of gas-guzzlers and sports cars, but never been interested in cars - except for the CD player and radio.

from the Hitch Hiker's Guide - re: Disaster Area concert

Newscaster: High above me, the sun is shining away and doesn't know what's going to hit it. The environmentalists lobby, however, do know what's going to hit it, and claim the concert will cause earthquakes, tidal waves, hurricanes, irreparable damage to the atmosphere, and all the usual things environmentalists usually go on about. But I've just had a report that a representative of Disaster Area met with the environmentalists this morning and had them all shot, so now nothing stands in the way of the concert going ahead this afternoon on this beautiful sunny day.

Sorry, but I don't think leaving the hi-fi on is going to make much odds - for my bit I don't have a freezer (don't like frozen food, except ice-cream) - so that's my contribution.

ATB Rotf

Dear ROTF,

Is there any degree of acceptable waste in your view? Of course wastage is inevitable, but is completely avoidable waste ever acceptable, where this may blight the lives of the future generation?

I can see a difference between necessary consumption for living, but not in idle waste, myself, but what would be your view?

This applies quite as much to leaving business computers powered when not in use up as to Hifi, in my view. Much has to change, but it will - you can be sure of that. And if not done voluntarily, it will be forced in with legislation. can you magine rationed domestic electricity. Frankly I can, or punitive pricing for over consumption, which if set by legislation will necessarily be arbitrary and somewhat unfair as well for some of the neediest in society ...

George

PS: On banding the price of electricity based on consumption levels, I actually think this would be a very good idea in Britain, as almost no one moves till they get a financial kick in the wallet.

George,

All of your points are valid. Anyone thinking otherwise are self-deluded.

But I would not expect many to care.

Most people's "contribution" to doing the right thing revolve around not having to make a sacrifice. Examples would be, "I dont have a car", when the reason has nothing to do with conservation. It has everything to do with their needs and financial situation. Or ROTF who helps by not running a freezer when he doesn't want or need one.

It is not making a contribution when you would not perform the activity regardless.

Doing the right thing is tough sometimes and would require us to live with a harsh sounding system for a couple hours.

Most people are unwilling to make that kind of sacrifice. Only in absolute convenience will most go the extra mile.

Thanks for trying to make the world a better and healthier place.

What I would rather hear from anyone who disagrees with your points or outright ignores them would be something to the effect of:

"I realize I should probably turn off my kit when not using it, similar to a lightbulb. But i don't really care that much."

For example I dont turn off my kit, and it is exactly for that reason. I dont care, i am selfish in this respect.

I will not make excuses by stating my driving habits, water conservation, recycling etc.

You are completely correct that unneeded waste is inexcusable. Regardless of other areas in which one might excel.

I only ask that we be honest about it.

quote:

And if not done voluntarily, it will be forced in with legislation. Can you imagine rationed domestic electricity?

Dear George

This is to me why politicians are so totally useless and I have no time for them - we should never have to ration electricity. There are plenty of ways to generate it without the need for oil burning power stations, but no investment was made by our government - instead it would rather spend money on bombing somewhere or waging wars in places we have no right to be. Yes, they'll try to blame us and tax us, but really they are not interested in the well-being of the world, just themselves. Global Warming is just a great way to get more money out of us.

If re-cycling is important then why don't they give incentives to those who re-cycle and empty the bins every week at least. Carrots, not sticks.

If congestion is such an issue, why not make the busses free, or give each person so many free ride tickets. Carrots, not sticks.

Unfortunately, all the politicians know about is sticks and giving themselves unjustified pay rises.

There are lots of better ways to do things, but we live in society that is only interested in making money and people trying to get the top (though never been sure what it is they are trying to get to the top of). A society that seems to think success = money.

Why do we import so much stuff - lots of food could be grown here, We don't need asparagus flown here from Peru. We don't need clothes sewn by children in the third world (I do my best never to buy such things). We don't need hi-fi from China. Stopping this would cut down the need for unnecessary business travel and needlessly shipping products.

Perhaps, we are heading to destruction, I don't know, but I'd like to enjoy the last few years listening to some fine music - not too much to ask - please click here for a great song to go out with.

Sorry, George, but I just don't believe the Government.

How many Government ministers does it take to change a light bulb

ATB Rotf

quote:

"I realize I should probably turn off my kit when not using it, similar to a lightbulb. But i don't really care that much."

Sorry, but I don't get this point - what is it I don't care about? I do not have a freezer because I don't care for frozen food, preferring to get my Asparagus fresh - there's a sign near my house that says Asparagus Next Left. The effect is the same whether I try to pretend I'm doing it to save something or other (not quite sure what) or just because I like fresh local produce.

Dear Rotf,

I don't tend to believe the government! I quite agree! But that does not cripple my ability to work the truth out for myself, either.

I doubt if the inability to increase oil supply to meet world demand from current relative cheap abstraction sources, could be concealed. It is there for all to see in the real everyday fact of economy choking inflation in fuel and electricity prices, so the fact that News organisations such as the BBC then report the [not necessarily absolutely invariably credible] reasons for the price increase we all see, they may then may carry a certain credibility in my view. These price increases affect the poorest worst [and soonest], but will before long affect almost everyone, who has to work for a living, very severely.

We then might consider how the peoples of the world might be fed in a world running short of oil, or indeed where the oil price can rise so fast in such a short time. For my rational explanation of that you really need to look at Don Atkinson's Thread, "Sustainability," where I explain this in some depth, and as yet no one yet has seen fit to disagree with the dismal prospect I discuss there. This is the last of about four consequtive posts on the issue:

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5801938...282940517#7282940517

My position is not one of trying to make people miserable, but rather to offer the kind of thoughts that amount to a wake-up call in their own personal behaviour.

It is always someone else's responsibility to actually do something, isn't it? So eventually when every one else has done nothing or too little, a government which so few bother to actually vote for [because their own lives are far more important than actually engaging in the act of trying to change political thinking, even too self-cantered to spend the necessary hour going to the poling station], simply fall back on complaining about what rotters politicians are ...

Someone else's problem to sort out - the buck having been passed, these people [not necessarily you, I hasten to add] - settle back into their own little "not my problem world,” of complaining, but doing nothing that actually costs them any effort or possible inconvenience.

And how that attitude actually guarantees ruin as things are going!

George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Jon,

We must lead by example. Then we can bring some moral pressure on them. Otherwise the world if on a definite course to Armageddon.

George

.. But Naim can't possibly supply that number of Armageddons! Anyway I don't care because I've already got one. (Sorry George, couldn't resist).

I agree we shouldn't thoughtlessly waste, and I doubt if any of the good folk of this forum do so. But I suspect we're all of us guilty of one or two areas of our lives where we make the decision to squander a bit of the environment for our own ends.

I recycle, I drive carefully to conserve fuel (being without a car where I live isn't practical), I switch lights off, turn off running taps. But my Hi-Fi stays on because it's my main pleasure in life and switching it off for any length of time adversely affects the sound quality. Yes, I feel guilty at times. But that soon passes when I listen to it. There you go.

Dear Tony,

My points are absolutely serious, but I did deliberately leave that potential for humour in there on purpose!

All I want people to do is think. It is the offspring of this generation who will catch the irresponsibility not just of our generation, but the preceding ones.

But I do think we are staring at the abyss within only one generation now. I do think that is the case. And I do think that, with huge general sacrifice across the whole population of the world, the food and fuel crisis may be, if not averted, then at least made less devastating in its impact.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
Sorry, but I don't get this point - what is it I don't care about? I do not have a freezer because I don't care for frozen food, preferring to get my Asparagus fresh - there's a sign near my house that says Asparagus Next Left. The effect is the same whether I try to pretend I'm doing it to save something or other (not quite sure what) or just because I like fresh local produce.

What I was referring to, and I wasn't directing this comment solely at you, is not caring about the impact of leaving the kit on 24/7. That is what I was implying that we dont care about.

And no need to get defensive, as I said, I leave mine on 24/7 as well. I know it is not responsible to do so, and to turn it off is certainly conserving energy.

To think that one is doing their part by not having a freezer, when you don't want one anyway, is analogous to me saying that I don't use an air conditioner, when there is no need for me to have one.

I am not going to justify the negative effects I have on the world by feeling good about what else I do not do.

Obviously, anyone who leaves their kit on 24/7, as I do, knows they are wasting electricity. And one cannot argue that NOT having a freezer in addition to turning off one's kit wouldn't be better.

I am not suggesting that we do turn off our kits. I simply ask that we realize we are being wasteful and be honest with oneself.

Self-satisfaction tends to cloud these waters.

The best way to be thinking here is not to concern oneself with all of the responsible things we do, those are expected. Rather what else could we be doing?

To not address those issues that we know are irresponsible because we dont litter, doesn't follow.

To be able to look in the mirror and be honest is tough, i know. And when I do, the amount I drive, the car i drive, buying meat and vegetables that need to be shipped across countries/oceans, leaving the kit on 24/7, not hand watering, all come to mind.

Sure we do what we can, but we cant feel to proud about it. Afterall, i know exactly what the ramifications are for leaving the kit on 24/7, yet I do it anyway.

That is what i mean by "i dont really care THAT much"

We all have a long way to go.

I remember a friend who got a DUI (driving under the influence) and was so upset and not remorseful because,

"Its not like I murdered someone".

He thought because there more heinous criminals out there, that it lessened his crime.

This is often the type of logic used to justify "doing the wrong thing" environmentally.

"Its not like I am dumping toxic waste in the river"

None of the so-called sustainable solutions mean anything until the primate infestation that's causing all the problems in the first place is brought under control.

Over-population is a fundamental problem, unless we become 10 times more efficient with our use of finite resources.

Finite oil and coal supplies is a problem because of over-population and rapidly expanding consumer-product life-styles around the globe.

mankind will find adequate alternative energy supplies before we run out of fosil fuels, even with the current population.

i am less certain that we will be able to grow enough food to satisfy more generous helpings of fillet steak and lobster.

For my contribution to the energy issue, I have swithched to only using electricity from nuclear power stations and wind turbines - so no problem for me when I leave my kit on 24/7.

I also have calculated (well, sort of convinced myself) that if I were to switch off/on my Naim kit each day this would shorten its lifespan from 20 years to 10 years. This means that Naim would have to build a new set to relpace the existing one. The energy input to manufacture and deliver the new one (aluminium case alone!!!!) would more than off=set the saving made by switching off/on every day.

Cheers

Don

George, you will have to sort out the humour from the serious.........

Don,

2 questions for you.

You can stipulate where your power comes from?? How in the world can you do that?


Am I correct that you are saying turning off your kit REDUCES the life of it? How does leaving it on 24/7 increase a piece of electronics longevity?

Dear Don,

On your "Sustainability" Thread, I have left no quarter for humour. I am sure you know how seriously I take these issues.

In light of this, I am sure you will appreciate this one. I have had the same car since 2000. I have a promised obligation to collect a friend from Bristol Airport on the 5th August. I shall scrap the car after that, and get myself a really strong bicycle for grocery etc.

I am weighing up whether on a proposed trip to Norfolk next weekend, I run the car or fit myself round the train system. I last used the car on the 2nd June on another promised lift. I suspect the train will win, though timetabling to Worcester is painfull.

I cannot justify the ease that using the car brings for grocery or going where I want exactly when I want.

In spite of general advice to the contrary [in Hifi mal-effects], I use "one" energy saver light bulb, and if I did not share a house would never put on the heating as I refrained from in my previous two flats. As it is I turn it off very sharp, if it get turned on by someone else! We almost never have really cold weather that is liely to freeze the pipes these days. I am prepared to accept the benison of hot running water for personal hygiene.

I may appear an ascetic sort of person, but I worry about wasting things, almost to an embarrassing degree. This because, as posts on your thread show, I care, but can only do a small amount. Probably it will drive me into eccentricity!

KR from George

PS: Don, turing off the kit does not shorten the life of it beyond requiring a new switch a little sooner perhaps, and in any case a ten yearly service will keep it running perfectly, long before any problems associated with turn off, creep in! That part of you posting really needs thinking about. And the Nuclear power you say you are using is still causing oil, gas, or coal to be burned to supply someone else, deprived of the chance to use the Nuclear that you have bagged and wasted.

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:

"Over-population is a fundamental problem, unless we become 10 times more efficient with our use of finite resources."

EVEN if we become 10 times...

"For my contribution to the energy issue, I have swithched to only using electricity from nuclear power stations and wind turbines - so no problem for me when I leave my kit on 24/7."

Wrong logic. Buying non-carbon energy doesn't justify "waste" of that same energy. The energy wasted is replaced eventually with carbon-generating energy while ever the capacity of the non-carbon sources is fixed. Helping the economics of the non-carbon sources by paying a premium eventually MAY lead to their supplanting all the carbon-based sources, but not in our lifetimes. BTW, I leave my kit on as well.

quote:

Obviously, anyone who leaves their kit on 24/7, as I do, knows they are wasting electricity.

Sorry, I don't agree - it sounds better when left on: it's designed to be left on. I don't see how this is a waste as it serves a useful purpose and I pay for the electricity. Otherwise you could say virtually everything is a waste. Am I wrong to use a washing machine when I could wash all my clothes by hand? Why use a stove, as I could eat raw vegetables? And so on .....

If I didn't contribute to the electric company's profits in this way then they'd just put the price up and everybody would suffer. As I tried to explain earlier, probably not very well, there is no benefit to the consumer - only an attempt to control by greedy worthless politicians who just tell lies.

Why don't they put high taxes on imports from China if they want to make an impact? I'm not saying it is because they have financial interests in companies that outsource their manufacturing, but it makes you wonder.

So my advice is leave it switched on and enjoy the music - enjoying music is one of the reasons for being alive.

ATB Rotf

Dear ROTF,

Whatever summersaults of logic you try to apply to it, it is a needless, avoidable waste of finite rescourses. As PCStockton said, just admit you do not care. At least that would be honest.

George

quote:

I am weighing up whether on a proposed trip to Norfolk next weekend, I run the car or fit myself round the train system. I last used the car on the 2nd June on another promised lift. I suspect the train will win, though timetabling to Worcester is painfull.

Dear George

Go by car.

If you go by train then you'll find somebody with a dreadful cold who will insist on sitting next you. You'll catch the cold and pass it on to all the friends you are visiting and they in turn will pass it on to all their friends. That's what happens when you have to resort to public transport; it is not a pleasant experience in the UK. If we had the service enjoyed in Switzerland then I'd feel differently.

You should not feel guilty about using your car to visit friends - visiting friends is a good thing to do. You are wasting nothing by going to see them, you are spending hard earn cash on something worthwhile.

If I bought an import when I could buy a local product then that is a different matter; it, IMHO, would be a waste and is an example of where I do not support waste.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear ROTF,

Whatever summersaults of logic you try to apply to it, it is a needless, avoidable waste of finite rescourses. As PCStockton said, just admit you do not care. At least that would be honest.

George

Dear George

I'm still puzzled at to what it is you don't think I care about. Is it that I don't care what businessmen and politician's say and would like me to believe.

I am being honest, I'm wasting nothing by leaving my system on. I'm using something that I'm paying for. Anybody who knows me well would confirm that I'm a very honest person. I'd never make a politician. I'm not worried about leaving on my hi-fi because it doesn't hurt anybody and has the benefit of making my system sound better.

I'm really lost as to what the issue is here. Yes I could turn everything off and live in a sealed darkened room, but I don't think that is a fate that anybody should have to endure.

George, enjoy life - it is not easy to do so, but you have to ignore the propaganda (it is there to make money for its purveyors), it's the only way.

All the best, Rotf