Upgrade Confusion

The 250 did much more than improve the bass. It improved coherency across the audible bandwidth. It made reproduced music more musical. It made the sound more dynamic. It cleared up congestion during complex musical passages.

All these effects are as apparent when played softly or very softly. I don't play the stuff loud. My room is about 15' X 33' X 7.5'. My speakers are about 89dB in sensitivity. I rarely turn the volume past 9 o'clock. I am a BIG fan of the 250.

The second hicap just added some refinement.But as always, YMMV.

I think the 250 is probably a better addition than the 2nd hicap, but I'm not sure it's your best choice, since it's usually better to upgrade in at least 2 jumps up the Naim ladder.

Are 135s a possibility? a supercap? a CDS2? It's a tough choice.

Phil
from 250 is Heaven, IL, USA

[This message was edited by Phil Barry on WEDNESDAY 26 December 2001 at 13:55.]

Depending on your speaker choice then, will define what your next step should be.

If you, just for example and not debate, where to go to SBL's, then active 180's are a cheap and very very capable interim.

Of course, 250's are better than 180's, but you may find that a Snaxo/HiCap/active 180's is a better way forward than just a single 250.

Happy x-mas,

Dev

Dev

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Originally posted by Richard van Laar:
The 250 has more weight and scale but to my ears these are the only two things really going for it. It sounds darker, more laid back, slowish and a little 'lumpy' compared to the 180. The smaller amp has better PRaT and sounds quicker on its feet (not entirely strange as bigger power supplies & more components tend to slow things down in power amps).

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Richard,

maybe the demo was just a good demonstration of how you need good front-end components to make big amps & speakers really work well? Just a guess.

The NAT02 is reputed to be an excellent source (did you try this with the 250?), but the 102 has been reported as a poor match for the 250.

Of course, you would have been using a Flat- or Hi-cap with the 250 - did you try that with the 180 in your demo?

cheers, Martin

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but the 102 has been reported as a poor match for the 250

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Martin,

Don't be such an anorak mate! 102/250 works brilliantly. Robert Ritchie's second reference system used to be CDS2/XPS/102/SCap/250/Credos and it really rocked. I've heard it put to shame many mega buck system, because it worked brilliantly on a musical level with just the right amount of sonic fireworks

Happy holidays

Dev

quote:

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The 250 has more weight and scale but to my ears these are the only two things really going for it. It sounds darker, more laid back, slowish and a little 'lumpy' compared to the 180. The smaller amp has better PRaT and sounds quicker on its feet (not entirely strange as bigger power supplies & more components tend to slow things down in power amps).

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I am not trying to be funny or anything but I suggest your must be looking for some kind of tonal balance that is centered around your speakers. Having owned 180/250/135's I'd say the 180 to 250 jump was extremely fundamental.

However Sonus Fabers are pretty bloomy speakers so maybe you are using the relative lack of control of the 180 to balance the sound in your room to your speakers.

Try some hard techno or similar and then do the 180/250 comparison.

happy x-mas

Dev

I'd agree entirely with your appreciation of the CM4s. The 250 does a better job of controlling the bass though.

I'm actually just back fom Switzerland for the Xmas break abd have a dem lined up at Infidelity (Kingston) on friday. I brought the 180 back with me in case I decided to take the plunge (kit is cheaper over here), but it actually looks like i could be loading a pair of Allaes into the car boot if friday's dem is good (they will be doing a direct comparison with the CM4s both on the end of the 180 and a 250). Thanks for the offer of a dem, but hearing your kit would probably get me into trouble with my bank manager...

I'll let you know how I get on. Loathe to change the CDX though, only had it 6 mths!

On the LP12 front, how easy are these to set up (thinking of taking one back) and what kit would you recommend as a basic set up? LP collection is growing rapidly, and the Revolver Rebel is not quite up to the PSXd CDX (although it did give the CDX alone a run for its money!)

Cheers
Paul

In direct answer to your question, I have recently been babysitting a 180 for a friend and took the opportunity to compare it directly against my 250 and another I had ‘lying around.’ I was shocked by how good the 180 was. Sure, it was a little rough around the edges and less refined than the 250s (a little shouty and fizzy if that makes sense?). If anything the bass was rather weightier but definitely less well-defined. These were pretty subtle changes though, so I doubt if introducing the 250 will immediately grant you tons more bass – changing the speakers might. I used a CDI/CDS and 82/52/hi-cap/supercap in various combinations. I think the 82/hi is a very cost-effective (at this level) solution and improvements to the pre-amp PSU were in the same magnitude of change from 180 to 250. Either stick with what you’ve got or get a supercap (non-existent s/h).

Given the above, I’m a big, big fan of the 250 and it will drive most things with ease. Your CDX/PSX is a stunning machine so, in your shoes, I would a). get some new speakers (I’d choose Shahinian ARCS but s/h SBLs are tremendous value for money) then b). get the 250 anyway for the nth degree of performance it’ll bring to you system. c) forget about upgrading unless lottery intervenes and buy some CDs. If you're going to Infidelity, try some ARCs and let us know what you think vs the Allaes (I've only heard the latter on the end of CDS2/52/500 when they were, not unsurprisingly, very good).

Steve

regards

Dev

ps. LP12's are easy to set up. Email me for advice.

pps. In your shoes and assuming you have a nice room, I would go for s/h SBL's @ 800 squid, a s/h HiCap @ 400 squid and possibly a s/h LP12/Ekos/Lingo for a grand (those three would cost a bit more than a pair of new Allaes!)

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Of course, 250's are better than 180's, but you may find that a Snaxo/HiCap/active 180's is a better way forward than just a single 250.

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Totally agree. The biggest and most obvious upgrade I have made (so far) is going active. The music just flows, like there's additional rhythm exposed. There is more bass, which is better controlled, it really is wonderfully addictive. I'm fairly cynical about these things and didn't find that 72 to 82 or CD3.5/FC to bare CDX was that much of an upgrade (or deaf - you choose), but the active configuration kicks ass.

John<---over upgraditis, at least until tax rebate time

Charles

Did get the chance to listen to the Allaes though, which are pretty impressive. Not immediatley so, but over the course of an hour they really shone through. Add the 250 and they work very well, this adding more guts to the speaker's presentation. I may well be tempted down this route in the future.

So thanks for all the advice. The conclusion (without comparing to the addition of a supercap) is that the 250 gives a much more dynamic sound, it digs into the music and pulls out more detail than the 180, and really takes more control of speakers, and for this reason it will be a cert at some stage next year.

The best news - I ordered an LP12 today. This I am really excited about. Yet to confirm the finish (Cherry vs Maple) and the arm/cartridge. Want to keep the initial outlay low, but not to the point of wanting to replace the arm & cartridge in 6 mths... Infidelity suggest the Akito arm and Rega cartridge (can't remember the name, £275 though(gulp!)). Any ponters anybody?

Cheers!