CDS3 vs. Top Spec LP12??

Mike,

I still have a Lingo 1 and a Helicon instead of an Akiva but to be honest I still prefer it to my CDS3. There is no doubt in my mind that a lingo2/akive would be better still (what you already have) but the CDS3 is still a very fine machine.

Sean.

My CDS3 is the first CD player to scream at me 'go out and buy CDs!'. I believe it is better than my LP12/Armageddon/Prefix/Helikon powered through the 552. I urge all of you to lay aside your doubts and at least give yourselves one opportunity to see what the medium is capable of, via a demo at a dealer.

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Is that with or without the sublime ARO tonearm?

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Surely anything else would be sacrilege?

Hi all,

My CDS3 is 6 weeks old now but I significantly prefer my LP12 Cirkus Prefix even with the out of date Ittok Troika combination. That said I need to add some good quality Cd's to my collection as it is a bit thin at the moment.
I would say the vinyl reproduction is still nearer the music than CD but the gap is much smaller than I was expecting when I first heard CD - hence the acquisition.

Smike

Chaps

I have heard a few LP12's in my time, mostly fitted with Aro's with a variety of cartridges and up until now, I would have said the vinyl was better than any CD including the CDS2. I would also say that the Garrard 401 that I have had worked on, is better than the LP12.

The CDS3 changes that. It is in my opinion on par with the LP12 in musical terms but you have the advantage of no snap crackle or pop etc.

I think the Garrard still has the edge but it is a close damn thing.

I am off to Tenerife next week and when I return, I may order a Supercap to further boost the Garrard. That could put it ahead of the CDS3.

I have to say that the CDS3 has exceeded my expectations and that I suggest that you all treat yourself to one.

Regards

Mick

"Comparisons are odious"

Oscar Wilde?

Like Mick, Smike and other lucky owners; I love the way my CDS3 produces music.

But........... there is still that indefinable vinyl 'something' with the sound of my relatively low spec LP12 (Ittok/DV 10x5) that makes any CD player sound artificial.

Gramophones eh; in the 21st century?

And there doesn't seem to be any sign of them going away anytime soon, with more and more young people getting the vinyl bug.

Fascinating Captain.

James/Jeremy, Sorry, I forgot to say the arm is the Ekos.

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That would be distortion you are hearing.

If your LP12 was "accurate" it would sound "digital" because just about every modern recording is made digitally.

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Did I use the word 'accurate'? - No I did not.

Distortion? - maybe - so what?. Guitar valve amp distortion is loved by millions.

Some of my vinyl is from the seventies; so the whole process is in the analogue domain.

I'm not saying it's 'right'. All recording and replay systems are a pale facsimile of the real thing. It is simply remarkable that a good TT can produce such a delightful sound.

There's weird primeval stuff going on with our hearing, that we do not fully understand. Why do some blokes (me included) get a buzz from the 'racket' of a Ducati or the Merlin engine of a Spitfire in flight?

Individual perceptions of recorded sound make this such a fascinating hobby.

Can we factor in the fact that my lowest spec Well Tempered Record Player outshone my LP12/Lingo/Aro by an embarrassing amount?

Mike,

I A/B this combination daily; the Linn LP12 with lingo is a little limp-wristed, try an Armageddon!

Back to the point: they are the same yet totally different-to use a motoring analogy, compare a Ferrari Enzo with a Bentley Arnage RL-Red. Different presentations they give the fullest feelings of absolute appreciation entwined with emotion. One smoothes where the other is gut wrenchingly fast!

LP12=Bentley, nice, full and can be old fashioned presentation, yet boring-at times.

CDS3=Enzo...gets better the harder you press the acceleration pedal!

Advice, go listen for yourself!

My name is taken from lowest region of the world, a dank, gloomy pit, surrounded by a wall of bronze, and beyond that a three-fold layer of night; it is one of the first entities to exist in the universe; primarily the prison for defeated gods and a place of punishment for sinners-just like my sense of humour!

I own a full blown LP12 (Ekos, Karma, Prefix powered by Epona, LP12 powered by Epona).

I had a CDS3 in for a 2 week demo and have to say thats a very fine music machine. It fits perfectly into my system and I enjoyed it very much. Played it for 1.5 weeks without playing any vinyl.

Then my first vinyl and right from the start the LP12 was better. I have to admit it wasnt that much but simply better.

The LP12 reproduced the music more organic more involved and the CDS3 was more at the "clinical" site which means more rational. It did everything well but the LP12 does it just better.

I guess I'll gonna get one some day.

Hermann

tartarus,

When A/B demming the lingo and armageddon what arm have you been using in the turntable? Also have you tried a Lingo 2? Just querious as I am looking towards a Lingo 2 or Armageddon. For the record I use an Ekos.

Sean.

sean,

Again personal preferences. Lingo 1 was used, this caused mild interference with Naim electronics, not sur if Lingo 2 cured this problem.

I also use an Ekos + Trioka, the balance is right for my system. Still a damn fine T/T...

Milly Jackson sounds right horny tonight!

I am still keen to read comments specifically about Lingo 2, Ekos, Akiva: that is Linns' best effort ( and what I have! ) and the CDS3 is Naims flagship.

Obviously other TTs have their fans, its just that I love my Linn.

Regards

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy

The differences between my LP12/Aro/Geddon/SPU Royal N and CDS2/XPS2 are down to the recording. I am not golden eared enough to tell the difference anymore and can't be bothered to compare. I would say that the CDS2 has better PRAT and the LP12 is possibly slightly more open an relaxing, but there is not much in it.

I don't rate the Ekos/Lingo combination, since it makes the Linn sound a bit dry and clinical for my taste, and for Alex S, I thought my Linn was better than my Well Tempered Super/Reference Arm so ner.

Dev,

Funny old thing this arm business. The only decent Aro I've ever heard was yours, the rest have all sounded dry as a stick and cardboardy to me (if there is such a sound). Every time I've heard one I've just gone nah, it just don't do it for me. However, I remain open to be enlightened and untill then I'll just enjoy the stunning power of my Ekos.

Sean.

"Bring me sunshine, bring me smiles, bring me laughter all the whiles."

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Vinyl can be enjoyed, but digital is the right tool for the job

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Andrew; you must spare a thought for all us poor unfortunates here using the wrong 'tool'.

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OK then, how can a CD player sound "artificial" when compared to an LP12 playing the same digitally mastered content?

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I'll take the liberty of quoting Hermann on this one:-

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The LP12 reproduced the music more organic more involved and the CDS3 was more at the "clinical" site which means more rational. It did everything well but the LP12 does it just better.

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The replay should be faithful to the original and not add any of its own color.

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Impossible! Which is why we are here in the realm of compromises.

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It is also remarkable how good a $50 bargain basement cd player can sound too.

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Really? You stick with that then.

We can agree on something - I too had a Honda VFR for many a trouble free mile. I now have an equally 'sensible' BMW, but enjoy the romanticism of the Ducati.

Happy listening.

People don't want to start on the "distortion" line.Ok TTs are mechanical but so are our ears (unless you had some personal upgrades) therefore subject to inaccuracies. With digital unless the Note/sound EXCACTLY matches one of the digital sample levels it will distort(quantisation).
V12 Merlin does it for me as well even have an LP of Spitfire engine sounds(sad).

Howard

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Originally posted by BigH47:

V12 Merlin does it for me as well even have an LP of Spitfire engine sounds(sad).

Howard

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Sad? No. When we were teenagers (early 60's) my brother bought some amazing racing motorcycle recordings including sprint (drag) bikes. 1000cc supercharged Vincent!
Playback was only mono via Dad's Armstrong & the big (Whitely 10") reflex box. But the sound! The sound! Shivers up the spine every time. It is difficult to imagine what such recordings would sound like on a decent system today. Perhaps it really needed valves to sound that good?

Nime

Everyone has the right to be wrong.

Well I had an interesting conversation with a recording engineer and musician last week. He talked about the differences between standing within the performers in the studio, to listening to the takes through the studio monitors and the final process of transfering the music to CD or LP. He stated that the transfer to CD significantly f**cks up or loses the musical expression. He also stated the LP medium is far superior in retaining this magic. He stated that listening to studio monitors is an amazing experience, don't miss it if you get a chance.

Both mediums have their issues, but isn't it stange that the more money you throw at digital playback the closer it sounds like a good TT. Even if LPs have more distortion than CDs its not about measuring distortion it's about communicating musical expression. I know I would prefer a $100 glass of wine in a plastic cup vs a $10 glass of wine in the finest cup. The vinyl arguement is about the wine not the cup.

John

Andrewthomas

Ahhh snake oil salesman, I remember meeting him about 25 years. He tried to convince me to sell off my LP collection and replace each title with his new oil. Then he came back about 15 years later and said oops I guess our original oil was too dry you need to try our new remastered oil. Guess what he's back again trying to sell his oil in a different format.

And whos been sold????????

[This message was edited by John on MONDAY 02 February 2004 at 03:01.]

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Even if LPs have more distortion than CDs its not about measuring distortion it's about communicating musical expression.

It's this kind of "New Age" thinking that has kept the snake oil salesmen in business.

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The problem here is there's distortion and there's distortion.

It's true that LP replay has very high (compared to CD) levels of distortion in normal use, maybe 0.5-1% at times. The spectral content of this is low order though, primarily 2nd harmonic, and a bit if third.

CD (or any digital system) on the other hand produces much lower levels of low order, but has more higher order harmonic content. It's the latter that most respected audio designers and those that have experimented will tell you is most audible or 'unpleasant'.

It's interesting to see what happens when a cartridge mistracks - the amount of distortion doesn't change dramatically, but there is a massive rise in high-order harmonics that makes things sound terrible.

Anyway all of this is virtually irrelevant, Andrew Thomas telling everyone that CD must sound better than LP for technical reasons is a bit like telling me what sort of food I should enjoy, without taking into account personal taste

Listening to music is an emotional experience and I don't think discussing the enjoyment of listening to it in technical terms adds anything to the equation.

I like both vinyl and CD and still find it astonishing that this high-distortion, limited dynamic range method still makes many CD players sound uninteresting and manages to resolve more information from the mix.

Andy.

Following Andrews' post can we get back to the subject at hand?

CDS3 vs top spec LP12? ( Lingo 2, Ekos, Akiva. )

Thanks

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy

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My CD player retails for twice the price of my complete TT setup, and I still believe vinyl to be superior music-wise. What's up with that?

James

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Might I respectfully suggest that your CDP is not delivering

laurie S

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Even if LPs have more distortion than CDs its not about measuring distortion it's about communicating musical expression.

It's this kind of "New Age" thinking that has kept the snake oil salesmen in business.

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Are you suggesting there is scientific evidence that distortion levels provide a measure of quality? It is certainly a novel idea but without objective evidence from listening tests it is just an idea, and I am not aware of any such research having been done.