Is Linn also manufacturing PCs now?

In a sense the idea here is being discussed right now in the "Does the Transport Matter?" thread. Looks like the Kivor may have an ordinary CD-ROM drive, although I couldn't tell for sure.

It must have been marketing forces that led Linn to make this thing so complex. "Serving 16 users independently and simulataneously"? 128 "zones" of music? This doesn't seem so much an audiophile device as something you'd put in a department store.

Pity every Kivor owner the day that Linn stops servicing these.

Never buy any serious recording device with a hard-disk in it. They are prone to going faulty.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"

Hard drives and cartridges both fail. The secret is to buy a recording system with swappable drives and automatic data protection (RAID), so that when a drive fails, it's a bit like replacing a light bulb -- not an entire music catalog.

IMO, these systems will be the wave of the future. I saw the Kivor and decided to build a crude version of my own on an old PC. I have 160GB of storage, and 24/96 card and separate AD/DA converter at the hifi. Sound quality is great, but usability is the pits. I have to use 2 different applications to get the music in and nicely cleaned up, and another to do the "jukebox" function. Once it's in and cataloged, it's pretty cool to hear LP12-quality sound from 50+ LPs playing at random...without me having to flip or resleeve a single record.

M

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Originally posted by Andrew Randle:
Never buy any serious recording device with a hard-disk in it. They are prone to going faulty.

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Andrew,

well, you have the perfect backup, in that you just have to reload the CDs again.

Of course, it could be more hassle if archiving LP.

Anything off radio would be a real problem!

Of course, both of these would need an off-board A-D anyway, as it doesn't appear to offer analogue inputs?

cheers, Martin

The Midiman Flying Cow, with the M-Audio card inside the PC sending a 96Khz signal, and the Cow set to "Ext sync" (it maxes at 48Khz internally). A newer version is available now, I hear, that does 96K inside the unit. Sounds great. The M-Audio card alone sounds good, too, but I didn't want the PC next to the hifi, and the Flying Cow sounds better. I got it at jdsound.com.

M

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IMO, these systems will be the wave of the future.

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I would agree with Mike - provided that the combination of a hard drive and decent DAC can outperform a dedicated CDP (transport and DAC). A decent 160GB hard drive can now be obtained for less than $200. Given a 2:1 lossless compression ratio available with audio, this would allow you to persist ~500 CDs on one drive (for a media cost of 40 cents per CD). My wife would love to see that ugly pile of CD jewelboxes disappear. RAID et.al. easily provides the backup security.

Provided that you had a good digital source and you are not concerned with home theater, what does the AV2 bring to the table that cannot be matched by a good DAC (itself being fed by a hard drive in a PC) feeding a standard pre-amp/amp setup (or even a Nait)? Has anyone compared the two (e.g., PC/DAC/pre-amp/amp vs. PC/digital feed/AV2)?

Finally a request for Mike - can you share some details of this beast you've assembled?

Erik

I don't want to be sat in front of a screen selecting my music - at work I sit in front of a screen for long enough already! Just placing a CD into a deck and hitting the record or play button is all I need.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"

A nice colour Palm or Pocket PC of some sort to act as both front end to the library, complete with artwork and 'what you might like next' suggestions, and remote control for the player/amplifier. I can see that starting to get attractive.

Paul

I'm intrigued to hear (and read) more about Soundzero's ideas (I too have explored using a PDA as a control device, see below.)

Dr. E, I have a plain-jane PC box I built using raw components (900MHz PIII, Win98, 4 PCI slots, 256MB RAM), 2 80GB drives (no RAID yet, I'm just tinkering now). The M-Audio card (forget the name) does A-D/D-A reasonably well, and also provides the SPDIF(?) digital in-out to the Midiman, which is a better A-D/D-A. For software, I use CoolEdit Pro (2000 I think) to separate LP sides into tracks. And I'm jumping between PCDJ and a program called MP3 Jukebox to do the playback. PCDJ is better, but more complex. MP3 jukebox plays everything and is easier to use, and also can have "skins". (I use something bundled with either the M-Audio or Midiman to do the recording, and CoolEdit will do it also.) I have a 15" flat panel monitor, and it and the keyboard/mouse are connected using a long extension from the PC (which is in the basement). The midiman sits on the hifi rack. I bought an infrared USB thingy, and have looked into software for the Palm which enables sending of remote commands via the Palm's IR port to this USB IR port on the PC. The current problem is getting the PC to translate the incoming IR signals to the appropriate commands on the desktop (play, stop, skip, etc). So far I haven't been able to get it to work, but I've only played with it a few times. The big issue appears to be on the PC, the Palm side of things is incredibly well thought out and versatile.

ANd if that's not enough, I've also looked at video cards which can send out video and digital audio signals, to become sort of a disk-based VCR. No rush on that, haven't purchased anything either.

I'm most interested in working with anyone who shares a similar interest (sickness?). Hope this helps.

M

Getting the system to work in its current form was no easy feat. The M-Audio card was a "plug and play" thing and worked great, but I wanted to move the PC. Adding the Midiman and using external sync didn't happen so quickly -- driver updates, software patches, and reinstalls galore were needed to get it finally working. Took more time than I expected, but has been worth the effort.

M

Granted it looks a little odd, and forces me to use the keyboard, but we have screen savers of family photos and other stuff to make it a little more tolerable. Frankly it's not that different from tinkering with the TV/DVD/Video Game console -- we usually pick a genre or range of LPs and hit go and then not touch it for hours.

M

Hum...will this Linn thing work if CDs are copy protected??? Will it accept SACD disks or are they assuming the media will be obtained from the 'net?

Also, some of the posts above (use a PDA for storage, interface) etc. sound very Apple-ish. The iPod and iTunes both come to mind.

As to how many people need/want the multi-room bit, I know there are quite a few in my area (Washginton, DC) as the local Linn dealer makes a killing installing the stuff. These customers' pockets are lined so they front their systems with the best (read: expensive and profitable) source components.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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3. Long range - Wireless networks can have a range up to 1500 ft. I plan on selecting music by the pool in my new house...

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That is best case (i.e. within the line of sight). When going through walls, beer cans, etc., I've found the range to be an order of magnitude less.

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4. Control from other computers - you can pick music from your computer while you read this forum.

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Ideally, I would be able to pick the music on your computer for you (r.e., Soundzero's nasty musical tastes). Gridcore and Norwegian Black Metal ...?!!

Erik

Brad-
Great tips, hadn't heard of Girder before. Thanks for the info, I'll let you know how it goes.

M

Anyone know if this is actually a decent piece of gear? I know that the SB line previously had chips that mangled the bitstream during conversions, does this suffer the same problem? If not, it appears to do, in one package, what I need 1 card, 1 box, and 3 software packages to do -- and I don't have to open the case to make it work. And it's only US$150.

Sound Blaster Extigy

M

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a quiet cpu fan is arriving soon so hopefully that will help. i may need to replace the psu as well.

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Brad

if you're into a little DIY, with due caution you can easily change out the noisy fan in your power supply for a better (read quieter) fan, yourself. Just make sure the fan you're planning to use has sufficient CFM. Sunon's are good quality, low noise. I replaced one myself last year - big improvements. Before I got that idea, the PSU was destined for the bin at 2 years old (just out of warranty). IIRC standard PSU cooling fans are 80mm.

If you want to go super-quiet have a look at this site www.pcpowerandcooling.com

Oh, and while we're at it, I really do like this US mag Maximum PC

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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if i understand what you are looking for, you may be interested in the audiotron made by turtlebeach. its a device that plays back mp3/wma/wav from a network connection. it even has remote, digital out, and standard audio component looks. i believe my uncle bought one of these and he seems to like it although the screen is a little hard to read. for $300, its not too bad.

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Wow, that's an amazing product. If it had inputs, and did 24/96, that would be the ticket. Having the Web browser and remote integrated means almost seamless interaction (i.e. the rest of the family can use it). If you (or anyone) knows of a similar product, but one that offers input and 24/96 capabilities, I'd appreciate a post.

Thx.

M

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in a few days, it should be all together! now i just need that dac. art dudley reviewed a new crazy little cube dac in the new listener which looks interesting(47 lab shigaraki dac). i might just like the idea of a 3"x3"x3" ceramic cube!

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This little mystery box is expensive - $45 per cubic inch (note that a CDSII is less than $13 per cubic inch). I am quite curious how it would perform in conjunction with such a system that you are assembling.

Erik

So how did you guys get on with this venture - Mike, Soundzero, Mr Exotica??

Keen to hear of your travels.

Anyone using a Linn Numerik for such duties? Should I have a go with my redundant Audio Alchemy DDE3.0?

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Originally posted by Rico:
So how did you guys get on with this venture

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Rico,

I don't hold out much hope (at least if using Naim amps).

I find my ATX-type PC when 'shutdown' (actually just on 'standby') has a noticeably deleterious effect on my system (compared to unplugging it). Maybe it's just 'Lingo' effect, or maybe the PC just ticking over.

cheers, Martin

Rico and others-
This is sadly over a year overdue, but I've been so busy with other non hi-fi issues, that I really hadn't done much serious work on this until recently.

I've considered and experimented with several different setups. I considered purchasing a number of different stand-alone "one-box" units too, (Fireball, SoundServer, etc) with the hardware and software all in one case. And I buitl or tinkered with several different custom hardware/software options, none of which ever seemed to fit.

Ultimately, I settled on a system built around the AudioTron, but I made that decision only a few months ago. I also had a system running myHTPC (short for My Home Theater PC), which uses a video or TV screen to sort everything out and manipulate the system. Very nice, but I settled on the AudioTron because I really don't like dealing with a PC at the Hifi cabinet. I had the remote keyboard/mouse, and even thought of a touch-screen flat monitor at one point, but decided against it all. The AudioTron's interface is pretty damned simple and easy to use. It's only a single rack unit high, and the server PC holding all of the music can stay hidden away in the basement.

The biggest drawback to the AT is the analog output is total crap! If anyone on this forum gets one, consider adding an external DAC of some kind before turning it on to listen. I've learned since that the AT is basically a Windows CE computer wrapped around a glorified portable MP3 player. Trust me, it sounds like it. Using an outboard DAC, however, it sounds plenty good. And it's given me most everything I wanted. The only thing it lacks is audio in, but I have a solution for that now, too.

To handle digitizing LPs, I bought M-Audio's Audiophile USB, which is an external version of their famed 24/96 audio card. Works like a champ, gets great recordings, better than the internal 24/96 sound card they make. I was really focused on recording 24/96 until I realized that if I really want the top fidelity when I'm listening, I'll play the damned record. (24/96 files also chewed up tons of drive space, way too much to be practical at this point). Now I just record everything at 16/44.1. (Most of the LPs I've digitized have been for the family to be able to listen without risking damage to the vinyl or the turntable).

The primary reasons I settled on the above setup are:

1) It's modular, meaning I can upgrade a piece at a time and not have to reload the library, or be held to a particular vendor's technology. The AT offers the critical features of being able to play full-bandwidth WAV files natively (no conversion required on the server), it has a digital output, and has a simple interface. If something better than the AudioTron comes along to get the digital bits from the PC to the Hi Fi, I can replace it without worrying. The AudioTron was only $250, and can be used to good end in a bedroom, office or kids room down the road.

Same goes for any new devices that sit in the Hi Fi cabinet and convert digital to analog. If I can get an AV, or something similar to replace the Adcom GDA-600, that's all I have to replace. The Adcom was $115 on eBay, and is a complete steal at the price.

The server won't need to change (save adding more space), but as long as the new devices support ethernet, my music library stays in tact.

2) It works. It may take a litttle network hagglign depending on your setup, but it was "plug and play" all the way for me.

3) The wife loves it. She can use it, she can program it. It got rid of all of the shelves of CDs, and the groaning PC chassis, and gave her the ability to play anything easily. She uses it more than I do!

4) Low kid destruction factor. I have a 2 year old and a 1 month old. The 2 year old destroyed a boom box CD player and nearly did that to my old Rotel. Now the worst he can do is trigger the AT to play all 4000+ songs at random.

5) It was cheap. Well, the way I went about it cost more, but to someone starting from scratch, the whole thing would cost less than $1000. And that's the PC with a 200GB drive, the AudioTron, a cheap used DAC, and cables to hook it all up. Probably even less than $700. Compared to $3000+ for a stand-alone box with only 80GB of space.

This is lengthy, but hopefully provides a little insight. Happy to answer any more questions for those that may have them. Also interested to hear anyone who's done the same sort of thing, but with different pieces/parts/results.

Mike

[This message was edited by Mike in CO on WEDNESDAY 17 September 2003 at 20:40.]

[This message was edited by Mike in CO on WEDNESDAY 17 September 2003 at 20:42.]

I should clarify my price quote:

Used PC: $150 (Pentium III 500Mhz, from eBay)
200GB HD: $160
AudioTron: $250 (discounts on the web, MSRP $300)
DAC: $115 (used on AudioGon)
Cables: $75 (for ethernet and optical cables)
Small hub: $50 (required for ethernet)

TOTAL: $800

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Originally posted by ejl:
It must have been marketing forces that led Linn to make this thing so complex. "Serving 16 users independently and simulataneously"? 128 "zones" of music? This doesn't seem so much an audiophile device as something you'd put in a department store.

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Or it could be designed for all those Multi-Millionare Yacht owners who want music available in every suite on-board with the occupants choice not affecting anyone else on board........
Linn do already do Yacht installations, so it sounds a logical step for that market.....

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

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Is Linn also manufacturing PCs now?

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Back in the 80's Linn wrote an object-oriented programming language to control their factory devices. It was called Lingo.

Paul Rowlands

'Rekursiv'.

The Audiotron looks like an interesting device at a sensible price. Might be worth getting one just for an experiment.

Paul