Vuk's thread last week on the deafness of dj's and the end of dance music got me thinking.
What makes great music? What makes music that lasts? When I listen to r'n'b, soul or even some pop from the '60's sometimes I think "this is great" (Stevie Wonder, Sam Cooke, Ray Charles come to mind as examples).
In the area of dance related music, where music seems to come and go so quickly, is any of the music truly "great"? (whatever that means) This weekend I was listening to the Source Lab 2 compilation (probably from about 1996 or 1997) I was struck by how "good" some of the music sounded and simultaneously how some of it was "dated". I wondered the same thing when I listened to some vintage Ninja tune stuff off the Xen Cuts compilation. The music on both these cd's is largely sample-based but that doesn't seem to detract from how well the music "works" and the quality of the samples seems ok.
Vuk's email also got me thinking about musical influences. To my way of thinking both Ninja tune , as a lable and the source lab compilation were influential. Perhaps Vuk will say, no, they were derivative and not original. I don't know. But where musical influences tend to generate imitation, how do we best evaluate or judge quality? Is longevity a criteria?
Vuk, if you read this, I'd be interested in your perspective on dance music and how it has evolved over, say, the last ten years. When you listen to stuff that is ten years old, how does it strike you? Does it sound hopelessly dated, still sound fresh, or does it sound good? Does any of it sound truly "great"?
In the spirit of musical recommendations, here are some:
the Xen Cuts compilation on Ninja tune
Source Lab 1 and Source Lab 2 compilations (I don't like source lab 3 as well)
Heads
Heads 2A
Any responses? Interested in your thoughts.
Markus
Posted on: 11 December 2001 by Former member
What make something great? Very difficult one to answer;
The Beatles are great and also very popular and that also goes to prove that "the old ones" can be great. However, I still play the "Fields of the Nephilim" on a very regular basis (anything from the Goth rock phase, not so keen on their punk phase), not overly complex but great bass lines and twinkly guitars. Mogwai is a recent one for me, but I suspect that I will still be playing "Come on die young" and "Rock action" in years to come.
I think "greatness" is an emotional reaction, I don't think you will ever pin it down to a distinct set of attributes, and like all things emotional a certain amount of personal taste comes into it.
I think you could have a good stab at quantifying greatness (On a personal level it's the music you keep going back to time and time again, on a less personal level "timeless popularity" is probably a good measure.), but I don't think you will ever define "what is greatness".
If you do define greatness, can I be in your band? I want to be on the band wagon as we roll in the money from all those guarenteed hits...
Posted on: 11 December 2001 by Former member
i will try again now.
what makes greatness? hindsite helps to show what is great. i listen to "no dice" by badfinger and i am always drawn to one track. you will know which one i mean. is it because it is the best track or is it just the most famous? i think it is the best track, how often do you find that the best songs on an album are singles? or do i just have a popularist ear? i dont mind beiing lowbrow, i like what i like.
what makes a song great, if we knew we would all be very rich. circumstances also matter. i was chucked (as ever) by a long term girlfriend once and the song on the radio on the way home was that dreadful "please dont go" disco track. i couldnt bear to hear it for until i got over her. then i couldnt bare to hear it because it was shite!
let me just check what you were asking and carry on replying
ashley
Posted on: 11 December 2001 by Former member
some more.
when i listen to older dance (post 88 for you non believers out there) track and they do sound dated but not always in the ways you would think. sometimes i only realise they are old when i look on the label, i think my memory must be fading. you will notice the tempo is less, around 120bpm rather than the 130-5bpm today. the production doesnt sound as full as people in their bedrooms didnt have the compressors and other goodies that are so cheaply available today. i look at what i have on logic audio and if that was hardware in a studio a few years ago it would have cost as much as a house- in london!
has the quality suffered? maybe, i just think there is so much around. you will still get a similar number of classics but they are surrounded by a lot more flotsam. back in the day there were only a few labels and now there are thousands. you could buy anything on nu-groove and get a top tune. today you have to jump around endlessly.
making music has never been easier, so the lowerst common denominator has lowered. you can get a sample cd with a great groove on, one you could never program or play. loop it and chuck on a few pads, make an attempt at nicking a melody and some deep lyrics; result a passable dance track that will sell a few thousand. all the dance compilations are looking for cheap filler after they have splashed out on the big hits and this is where they come from. i cant moan about this democratation (you know what i mean) on music, i just dont buy it.
are their classics in dance music? of course, look at the prices of some tracks. i feel love? any of the compass point grace jones. pacific state. most early todd terry. the aformentioned energy flash. a bit of trouble funk. bug in a bassbin. i wont bother going on, you should all have some in your collection. people will run into a record shop on a monday morning and ask for the track will bells and the dog bark breakdown and not the one with a nice chord sequence. so forget your "songs" with dance music and learn to smile.
nice one matey.
ashley
Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Tony L
quote:
What makes great music? What makes music that lasts?
For me it is all about breaking boundaries and originality. The Beatles were great because they created music completely unlike what had gone before, they were also pretty unique in that the general public actually 'got' it at the time. The vast majority of music that I think qualifies for the description great took far longer to reach that level. Take Velvet Underground, Can, Neu!, Eno, Kraftwerk etc as examples, all have left an indelible mark on the face of modern music, remove any one from that list an I honestly think things would be very different today.
Dance music has obviously left a unavoidable mark on modern music too, it is everywhere. Everyone is using techniques pioneered by this genre, even in fields that would appear to be diametrically opposite e.g. heavy metal - Linkin Park owe a huge debt to the Beasty Boys / KLF etc, as Radiohead do to Plaid or Autechre. I think it is still perhaps a little early to know what the real classics were, but my money is on the stuff that lurked just a little away from the dancefloor - Black Dog / Plaid, Aphex Twin, Plasticman, Oliver Leib, Speedy J etc. I think these were along with Arab Strap, Mogwai, Godspeed you black emperor, Sigur Ros, Bedhead, Grandaddy, Eels etc in the rock field are the VU / Can / Neu! / Kraftwerk etc of the 90s.
Tony.
(who has just about everything mentioned as a classic by Ashley on 12"!)
Posted on: 12 December 2001 by Steve Catterall
quote:
my money is on the stuff that lurked just a little away from the dancefloor
Can't say that I agree with you here. IMO none of these artists is producing anything that is going to influence people to create new music. They are an interesting experiment in using techniques pioneered by dance artists to produce non-dance music.
If we're talking about 'dance' music being 1988 onwards - then I would say there are already classics out there. Energy Flash, for instance - it still has the same effect on the dancefloor that it has always had ... and it spawned the whole trance movement pretty much
some more dance classsics IMO
Energy 52 "Cafe Del Mar" Hooj Choons 1993
Future Sound Of London "Papua New Guinea" Jumpin' & Pumpin' 1992
Underworld "Born Slippy" Junior 1995
Orbital "Belfast" Ffrr 1990
Gat Decor "Passion" Effective 1992
Moby "Go" Outer Rhythm 1991
Letfield "Song Of Life" Hard Hands 1992
Rhythm Is Rhythm "Strings Of Life" Transmat 1987
Lil Louis "French Kiss" Ffrr 1989
808 State "Pacific State 808" Ztt 1989
Joey Beltram "Energy Flash" R&S / Transmat 1990
Liquid "Sweet Harmony" Xl 1992
Orbital "Chime" Ffrr 1990
Mory Kante "Yeke Yeke" London 1988
Hardfloor "Acperience" Hardhouse 1992
[This message was edited by Steve Catterall on WEDNESDAY 12 December 2001 at 15:32.]
