Did the DJ's save the vinyl medium?

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it's too inconvenient to ever catch on again

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I'm with you there. I've got a P3/DX4mk2 and about 400 records that I bought from various sources over the past couple of years (mostly garage sales). I've listened to less then 50 of them (probably closer to 25). Mostly it's due to the annoyance of having to hover over the turntable. When I listen to music, I might sit for a while, then I walk around doing a few errands, etc. After an absurdly short time, the record's done and I have to go running back to turn it off.

Now I know why they invented the "automatic" turntable. There's a lot to be said for convenience. I don't like my music listening pleasure to be sullied by the pain of dealing with an inconvenient mechanism.

I'll eventually listen to all/more of my LPs (and probably cull many), or perhaps I'll just get sick of it after a while and dump the whole lot.

As to the original question, I see two reasons for the resurgence of vinyl. DJs certainly get some of the blame. However, I believe the main cause is our unending desire for nostalgia. Vinyl has been "out" for well over a decade, and people miss it. This fad will pass, and it will be back to the audiophiles proselytizing the merits of vinyl, while being ignored and scoffed at by "reasonable" people.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

To me one of the most satisfying things for me about using analogue sources is the involvement with the equipment.Seeing the needle in the groove on the lp12 , watching the reel to reel turning on the revox , all this adds to the listening pleasure.In comparison the cdx/xps is a sterile box.74 mins for an album is too long anyway.
The use of vinyl in the clubs has to an extent kept the format alive (thank goodness)and for many younger people that I know is still the format of choice.
I run a pa system playing vintage jamaican singles and part of the attraction of this is seeing the old original vinyl on the turntables , the cracks and pops just add to the spectacle and the sound is much better than reissue cds.

I agree with SKABOY; part of what distinguishes hi fi as a hobby as opposed to stereos being another dull appliance is the involvement one can have with the gear. I somehow like cleaning the record, putting it on, etc. I also like all the possibilities raised by the variety of carts, stands, pre-preamps, arms, decks, etc. CD players are just another box you can operate but not substantively transform.

I would guess that DJs have had little to do with saving vinyl; by themselves they constitute too small a market to sustain the medium, I would think. In the US at least, indpendent labels apparently have enough customers to support continuing to release on vinyl, and if you look at the distribution sites (like Insound), most of them do. Oddly though, I suspect that many of the buyers of this new vinyl are not audiophiles but musicians and others who, a la Steve Albini, hate digital.

I recently heard a story on NPR that vinyl sales eclipsed prerecorded cassettes for 2001, and that vinyl sales were back to a level near what they were in the early 90s. Sales have been steadily dropping since the mid 80s, it reported. (Don't get excited, vinyl is still hovering around a few percent or so of the total media sold.) The largest segment of vinyl buyers, according to the report, was DJs. I know some shops I frequent that sell new vinyl have DJ sections that are as large or larger than all the other sections combined. New DJ releases get an entire wall, the rest of it (Jazz, Punk, Rock, etc) get a single shelf for new records from all those categories.
I think the DJs get most if not all the credit for the resurgence. So if you're out there, thanks.

M

This is true.

In the early / middle 90's it was dance 12" singles that kept the pressing plants going. ONly in the last few years have rock and other genre Lps come back. Vinyl re-pressings of old classics have made in back into mainstream shops now.

I was in London yesterday, at Picadilly Tower records - they have a little sub-shop full of dance 12's, but only a few dance LPs, fewer rock. and no jazz / folk / world / classcial LPs that I could see.

Budding DJs have 2 x technics, and so buy records.

DS

OTD - Robert Gorl - Final Metal Pralinees

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I agree with SKABOY; part of what distinguishes hi fi as a hobby as opposed to stereos being another dull appliance is the involvement one can have with the gear. I somehow like cleaning the record, putting it on, etc. I also like all the possibilities raised by the variety of carts, stands, pre-preamps, arms, decks, etc. CD players are just another box you can operate but not substantively transform.

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I'll second ejl's remarks (and SKABOY) - part of the fun of this hobby is the process. Cleaning the LP on the Nitty Gritty, brushing the LP with the Decca, greasing the stylus with the Stylast, and dropping the arm on the LP. Pure fun. Perhaps this sheds additional light why I use a 39 year old car as my daily driver ... I love machines.

James is also absolutely right - there is a huge amount of music that is simply not available on CD. Major case in point - Martin Denny's Exotic Moog.

Finally, Mike in Colorado is quite correct in thanking the DJs; especially Thunderball, Thievery Corporation, and Ursula 1000.

Erik

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there is a huge amount of music that is simply not available on CD

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and on the other hand ... there is an even bigger amount of music that's not available on vinyl

Snap,Crackle & Pop- no need to say more.
Nick & Mike hit it on the head. Yes you may get a good performance from vinyl, but look what many have spent(boast!) to get it-I'm more than happy with the sound of my Cd3.5+ flat cap when compared to my vinyl(TD160 rebuilt+RB300+MC15).

Steve

Might have saved vinyl in the dance genre but I can't see that having had any impact elsewhere.

The so-called revival in vinyl is down to a cynical exploitation by record companies of those people who are daft/wealthy/pretentious enough to want to pay premium prices for a bit of plastic to impress their equally gullible fellow travellers.

cheers

Nigel

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Main guns swivelling if anyone seriously wants to tell me how much better CD is...

It finally hit me that the best sounds ever heard on these trips were on friends turntables

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Maybe you should try some different trips. Good ones make CD sound out of this world ... and LPs far too fiddly to be bothering with

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Do you think that the medium was saved by the evolving DJ/Dance culture?

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Yes, the dance scene kept the pressing plants open in vinyl’s darkest hour (back in the days people thought CD was worth a toss.).

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Secondly vinyl is seen again as a viable and 'cool' medium.

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The audiophile community as a whole has never left the medium – there was a time where it was hard to find enough new software, but thankfully that has passed. Ironically this forum is just about the only one where there is any debate about the superiority of vinyl, everywhere else it is (correctly) accepted as the medium of choice for serious listening. I find it absurd that allegedly serious audiophiles moan about the lack of a remote control on a record player!

The bedroom DJ contingent (just about everyone between the age of 15-25 seems to have a pair of Technics 1200 decks in their bedroom) ensures that enough records are being bought. Vinyl production went up again last year, outselling cassette tape – people are now realising that CDs are fine in the car, but use records at home if you are listening seriously.

Vinyl is back, simple as that.

Tony.

"Audiophiles" will complain about no remote on a turntable because they're in it for the gear (and round earthy things), not the music. I'll mess with LPs because I like the music that comes from them better than a CD. And I'll go to smoky, dingy clubs on the other side of town to see someone play live, rather than sit home and listen to the recordings, if I have a chance.

It's about the music, and vinyl gets me closer than CD.

M

BTW, I wrapped this word in quotes to distinguish non-fanatics (i.e. non-audiophiles) from those individuals who are hung-up on vinyl. Consider this fairly routine process:

1. Slip the liner from the the sleeve.
   
2. Carefully slide the LP from the liner.
   
3. Set the record on the platter, by lining up the center-hole on the LP with the spindle of the turntable.
   
4. Clean the record with the brush.
   
5. Turn on the motor.
   
6. Squint to find the desired track on the platter
   
7. Precariously drop the needle into the groove (often requiring a couple of re-tries get it to the right place).
   
8. After listening to desired segment, carefully move the needle back to resting position.
   
9. Remove the record without knocking the tone-arm off it's rest.
   
10. Carefully slide it back into the liner.
    
11. Slide the liner back into the sleeve.
    

With rituals like that, no wonder it's become a religious experience for many. Gladly, I'm not part of the cult.

LPs are fine for an occasional, nostaligic diversion. However, even the best turntables don't sound sufficiently better than my CDS2 to make me tolerate the vinyl obstacle course on a regular basis.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

And isn't that what listening to music is all about? Reduce anything to a process that dull and you'd have a hard time selling anyone on it.

1. Drive to mountain trail.
1. Remove shoes.
2. Put on hiking boots and lace properly.
3. Put on rain slicker and backpack with safety gear.
4. Walk uphill until desired destination reached.
5. Walk back to starting point.
6. Remove boots and pack, and replace shoes.
7. Drive home.

If the process for having sex had an equivalent step that read, "Continue until desired conclusion is reached," would anyone even bother?

M

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4. Walk uphill until desired destination reached.
5. Walk back to starting point.

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That's the only part of your list that represents "hiking". The rest can be categorized as superfluous (or at best a "road trip"), and has nothing to do with hiking. Yes, you might have to experience a road trip to achieve a pleasant hiking experience, but it's not necessary. If I like to hike near my house where it's convenient, is that unacceptable? Or is true hiking pleasure achieved only by getting in the car and driving for a few hours, donning special shoes and a slicker, etc.?

In the same way, seducing a turntable has nothing to do with music listening pleasure. It's just a quirky little dance step that a few cultists have mistakenly married with a "good music listening experience". The two activities are not one-and-the-same, and they definitely do not have to coincide.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Mike, you should leave the platter turning all the time...

IMO it's much faster to flip from album to album, track to track, with vinyl than with CD. Where CD scores ergonomically is storage and being able to play continuously for over 25 minutes. It's obviously an acquired skill but I find flipping vinyl rather easier than flipping burgers.

In terms of sound quality I'm happy with CD and happy (especially now...) with vinyl. I'd not pay a premium for new vinyl and I think that many recent CD remasters of classic albums are outstanding.

But when you're having a track by track session nothing beats a good vinyl collection gradually spreading over the floor....

Paul

As a single person who has to do his own ironing, having to stop every 20 minutes to change sides or put another record on is a real blessing

Clive

Love the music, hate ironing

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IMO it's much faster to flip from album to album, track to track, with vinyl than with CD.

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Are you trying to tell me that extracting an LP form its inner sleeve, after extracting the inner sleeve from the outer sleeve, then putting it on the turntable, then queuing up the stylus is faster than flipping open a CD case, dropping the disc onto the spindle, dropping a puck, and then pressing Play? You must be a wonder to watch.

Maybe we'll have a race some day.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

On the race--I've got fifty bucks on Paul.

No matter how good CD gets I still have yet to hear one that equals or betters my LP12. There is still a sense of relief when going from CD to LP.

Sure, a great CD can beat a crap record, but a great record devastates a great CD.

And I think Mike in CO was right on--we really do have to meet.

Best,

Bob

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Are you trying to tell me that extracting an LP form its inner sleeve, after extracting the inner sleeve from the outer sleeve, then putting it on the turntable, then queuing up the stylus is faster than flipping open a CD case, dropping the disc onto the spindle, dropping a puck, and then pressing Play?

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Yes...

It's possible to multitask, the record that is going on can be desleeved before its needed and the record that comes off can be abandoned without its sleeve while the new one is being loaded. And I don't need to read the TOC and seek to track 'n', I just go straight there.

Obviously one doesn't use the lift-lower device...

Paul

Absolutely NOT!!!

Have they helped with a resurgence and awareness of vinyl? Yes. Have they helped bring the average cost of LPs down? Yes.

What has saved vinyl is music enthusiasts, pure and simple. Look at the titles. You don't find Britney Spears on LP. Many blues, bluegrass, and jazz titles outsell their CD counterparts and have for years. I guarantee DJs aren't buying those titles! And the popular jazz, blues, country(the real deal), rock-and-roll, and some classical that is selling like hotcakes right now are CD re-issues of records recorded in the 40s, 50s, and early 60s. These records are mono in many cases, and recorded on tube equipment. Many of these re-issues are actually transfers from 78s. These are new titles too. Used records are the same story. The reason I can't find a decent used copy of Rick James or Earth, Wind, and Fire is probably due to DJs. But who's buying all the Art Pepper records? I go in one day, see a bunch of records in the bins, come back the next day and they're gone!

Look at the hardware too. Sure Technics last year sold more turntables than Linn, Roksan, Rega, etc. combined. But look at cartridge sales. Because most enthusiasts own well built turntables and arms, they are buying cartridges like crazy. Look at the sales figures and cartridge models sold by Grado, Linn, Dynavector, Van-den Hul, Koetsu, etc.
And what blows me away is the market share for phono pre-amps today. This is a market segment that didn't even exist 10 years ago! And again, no thanks to DJs. And I'm talking about reasonably priced gear too, not just hi-end.

As for convenience; You CD guys have been ripped-off! $12 grand for a CD player that only plays one piece of $15 dollar software. Your dealer saw you coming!! You can buy a multi-disc programmable CD player that can play 100 CDs. Hook it up to a good D/A converter (a Naim AV-2?) and you're off. If you say that the sound is worse, then you're using your same argument against LPs. You're obviously deciding on sound, not convenience. And if you really had common sense and really wanted the best sound, you'd have bought a NAT-01. That tuner with a top-notch aerial mounted on a 50 foot mount costs less than a single CDS-2. It sounds better than any CD player, needs no software, plays uninterupted for thousands of hours straight, and doesn't eat pucks.

My second most-played music source after FM is satelite "radio". 62 channels of constant uninterupted music. Choose the style of music and never touch a button again for hours. The hardware is a few hundred dollars, the software (monthly subscription) costs less than one CD, and the sound quality exceeds a decent CD player. It also lists the song title, artist, and label so you can also turn yourself on to music you hadn't previously heard of (and isn't this what the Holy Grail is all about?).

I just finished listening to a 78rpm box set of The History Of Jazz. I bought it mint for $2. I play 78s not because of price, sentimental value, or because it's the cool retro thing to do; I do it because nowhere else in the world can I hear Hollywood Stampede or I'm Thru With Love by Coleman Hawkins (with Oscar Pettiford on bass), or Balboa Bash by Stan Kenton. [and just for the record, the sound quality is better than anything on CD]

Sorry for the rant but vinyl's popularity is not because of DJs, it's because of the music.

Ron The Mon,
Arch Kan defender and wall driller.

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but vinyl's popularity is not because of DJs, it's because of the music.

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but vinyl is not that popular whatever a couple of dozen people on a specialist hi-fi web site say - or any other hi-fi website come to that.

What I don't understand is why you needle-freaks have this compulsion to tell everyone how much better than any other medium you think it is. Why not just be smug in silence?

cheers

Nigel

Whats likely to happen is a back lash in the future. For people like me bought up on CD as the preffered media, the joy of finding music for 2 or 3 quid a go is wonderfull, and the main reason I am buying vinyl. Once the wealth of older recordings flitter away leaving 'sound of music' and 'Phil Collins Face Value' the price and availablity of vinyl new and old may well go up.

This I guess comes down the the enjoyment of music, I got 6 Ry Cooder albums for under a tenner, how could I do this on CD?


Regardless of how we praise Vinyl, to say its quicker to use than CD is bollocks, its a pain in the arse, (in an interestig kind of way)

I love the sounds from this LP12, I can't believe how good vinyl sounds, however one day I will see my self becomimg pissed off with the background hiss and crakles.

For all the money we spend to get rid of distortion and have a pure sound, all that crakle and stuff must be effecting the music even if we can't hear it. which begs the question, do we enjoy music with a bit of that dreaded distortion?

I look at it this way, the Linn is a great investment, I can't calculate how much the vinyl I have bought would have cost on the silver disk, but one day I will have a CDS2 and then it will be back to CD for me.

All good fun though.

Did DJs save the vinyl? well I guess if music never went down that road, Vinyl may well be gone now.

You said;

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vinyl is not that popular whatever a couple of dozen people on a specialist hi-fi web site say - or any other hi-fi website come to that.
What I don't understand is why you needle-freaks have this compulsion to tell everyone how much better than any other medium you think it is. Why not just be smug in silence?

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First of all, I don't think you have any idea how many records are being sold today on vinyl!! You laser-freaks are so gullible that you continue to believe the lies of "Perfect Sound Forever" and the lies that only a thousand LPs are sold a year and 999 are bought by DJs. Maybe you only buy at Tower or Amazon.com which specialize in the likes of Garth Brooks and have ninnies behind the counter who don't even know what a vinyl record looks like. Compare a shop that sells only CDs and the lack of musical knowledge the pimply geeks behind the counter have to a good independent record shop where the employees/owners actually go to live shows, have record collections in the thousands, own decent hi-fis, have real enthusiasm and knowledge of music, and in many cases are local musicians. Look around an independent record shop; they aren't afraid to have a tuner on though they usually have an LP playing. In other words they don't kow-tow to what Sony or Warner tells them to do. They usually have a turntable and CD player handy with headphones to let you hear the music before you buy. Online and at the big name shops they tell you and allow you to listen to what they dictate. Corporate music still sucks and the big chain stores are still sucking the corporate music guys.

You say vinyl is not popular? OK, I'll play your game; let's talk strictly popularity and not sound quality. My father in law has an Edison Cylinder player and over a hundred cylinders. It sounds better than 78s from that era, yet 78s took over almost immediately. The same fate for 78s. They sounded better than LPs but died with the "public" overnight. CDs have all but killed the cassette in auto playback but the vinyl LP is still here 20 years after the introduction of CD. Vinyl playback is almost 50 years old and not anywhere near death yet people on this forum are concerned that their CDX purchase may be a bad move because of DVD-Audio or Super-CD.

Me, I have absolutely no reason to believe FM or LPs are anywhere near death. Why? Because there are music enthusiasts behind them, not corporate big-wigs after a dollar instead.

Ron The Mon,
Arch Kan defender and wall driller.

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Why not just be smug in silence?

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Ok. Feels kind of good.... I can keep this up for a while....

Tony.