Q. for classical fans
Posted by: bhazen on 02 April 2006
When listening to some Baroque-era music on CD I have been noticing something funny. And this tends to happen w. ensembles that perform using period instruments (or I assume they do) like what I'm listening too as I type this, Christopher Hogwood & the Academy of Ancient Music doing Handel (Water Music, Royal Fireworks, The Alchymist etc.) The thing is, it all sounds slightly out-of-tune to me. is there something about the temperament or voicing of "authentic" instrumentation that lends itself to this? I've never noticed this in recordings of, say, Beethoven or Mahler. Or is it my ears?
Posted on: 02 April 2006 by cdboy
Simple - they are playing out of tune, wind instruments in particular. Happily things have improved since some of the diabolical early recordings.
Posted on: 03 April 2006 by Guido Fawkes
I have lots of albums featuring Christopher Hogwood and he does use authentic period instruments. I think some these can vary by as much as a semitone from the modern counterparts (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
A modern work like Anthems in Eden on which Christopher plays for Shirley and Dolly Collins, which uses all kinds of original instruments, but doesn't sound as muchout of tune as his works with the Academy of Ancient Music. They use FortePiano rather than PianoForte, for instance, - I may be getting out of my depth here - but I think strings are plucked rather than hit with a hammer within the instrument, so it'll sound different.
Fredrik helped explain about original instruments in one of his informative posts.
Personally I prefer the 4 Seasons played by Le Petite Band on original instruments to any of the modern versions I've heard.
A modern work like Anthems in Eden on which Christopher plays for Shirley and Dolly Collins, which uses all kinds of original instruments, but doesn't sound as muchout of tune as his works with the Academy of Ancient Music. They use FortePiano rather than PianoForte, for instance, - I may be getting out of my depth here - but I think strings are plucked rather than hit with a hammer within the instrument, so it'll sound different.
Fredrik helped explain about original instruments in one of his informative posts.
Personally I prefer the 4 Seasons played by Le Petite Band on original instruments to any of the modern versions I've heard.
Posted on: 03 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Baroque Pitch is not quite fixed in the way of modern Pitch, which is normally established at A = 440 Hz.
In fact there are two regular Baroque Pitches, but you would never guess that from modern recording using 'Baroque' Pitch. Chorton, and Kammerton. Chorton is higher than modern pitch and Kmmerton is lower. They are basically a tone aprt, and Kammerton is basically about a semi-tone flat of modern pitch. Pitches used for Kammerton vary from A = 407 Hz to 435 Hz, and are typical taken as being at 415 for Bach's time and often at 435 for later pre-classical music. The Organ in Bach's time was tuned to Chorton, which required the played to use a transposition if he was to accompany a Baroque Orchestra, as the wind instruments would never be able to tune up a whole tone, and be in tune at all, as the absolute lengths for the tuninng holes would be in the wrong place. A wind instrument is fundamentally built for the pitch it can play in tune. With stringed instruments it would produce a lot snapped strings!
Chorton is self-explanettary, being the pitch of Choirs, and Organs. But Organs are notoriously variable as to precisie pitch, as every re-tuning makes them go sharper, because the ends of the pipes are shortened each time! Thus a full rebuild will also involve retuning to a chosen standard pitch! Even the time of year will affect this as the change in pipes' actual length with different ambient conditions will be enough to produce a discernable change in pitch to those with sensistive ears!!!
Then we might consider that even Bach's Well Tempered Clavier was written for a tuning scheme that was not (it is now believed) exactly what we have on the modern piano but a different compromise. It must be rememebered that ALL conventional keyboards are fundamentally out of tune! Using them to correct sung notes is not possible for example. Correctly the tuning chord at the begining of a piece should only be a single note, from which the choir can pitch its own relative first notes with accuracy!
The note C Sharp in A major is actually a different not to D flat in A flat major, but it is represented by only one key in a keyboard. I have written about this, here, at greater length, but cannot remember the reference. A search may produce the goods.
As for Barpque intruments being less easy to play in tune, there is a good deal in this. Gut strings are quite unstable in some atmospheric conditions, and the woodwind instruments were quite treacherous to get exactly the correct tuning, but there is no more excuse for out of tune playing on old instruments (or copies) than any other type, but we must be aware that if you have a perfect pitch for example that the variety of pitches used and choice of correct (in terms of HIP) tuning schemes used for keyboards, may cause some listeners to consider the result ill-tuned, even if the actual tuning is fine enough.
One example of this can be a continuo cello adjusting his tuning to match a harpsichord, away from the "just intonation" we recognise as perfect, and which all string players use as well as choirs, towards the modified temperament of the keyboard, and of course there are any number of schemes for tuning Baroque keyboards, let alone our modern scheme!
All the best from Fredrik
In fact there are two regular Baroque Pitches, but you would never guess that from modern recording using 'Baroque' Pitch. Chorton, and Kammerton. Chorton is higher than modern pitch and Kmmerton is lower. They are basically a tone aprt, and Kammerton is basically about a semi-tone flat of modern pitch. Pitches used for Kammerton vary from A = 407 Hz to 435 Hz, and are typical taken as being at 415 for Bach's time and often at 435 for later pre-classical music. The Organ in Bach's time was tuned to Chorton, which required the played to use a transposition if he was to accompany a Baroque Orchestra, as the wind instruments would never be able to tune up a whole tone, and be in tune at all, as the absolute lengths for the tuninng holes would be in the wrong place. A wind instrument is fundamentally built for the pitch it can play in tune. With stringed instruments it would produce a lot snapped strings!
Chorton is self-explanettary, being the pitch of Choirs, and Organs. But Organs are notoriously variable as to precisie pitch, as every re-tuning makes them go sharper, because the ends of the pipes are shortened each time! Thus a full rebuild will also involve retuning to a chosen standard pitch! Even the time of year will affect this as the change in pipes' actual length with different ambient conditions will be enough to produce a discernable change in pitch to those with sensistive ears!!!
Then we might consider that even Bach's Well Tempered Clavier was written for a tuning scheme that was not (it is now believed) exactly what we have on the modern piano but a different compromise. It must be rememebered that ALL conventional keyboards are fundamentally out of tune! Using them to correct sung notes is not possible for example. Correctly the tuning chord at the begining of a piece should only be a single note, from which the choir can pitch its own relative first notes with accuracy!
The note C Sharp in A major is actually a different not to D flat in A flat major, but it is represented by only one key in a keyboard. I have written about this, here, at greater length, but cannot remember the reference. A search may produce the goods.
As for Barpque intruments being less easy to play in tune, there is a good deal in this. Gut strings are quite unstable in some atmospheric conditions, and the woodwind instruments were quite treacherous to get exactly the correct tuning, but there is no more excuse for out of tune playing on old instruments (or copies) than any other type, but we must be aware that if you have a perfect pitch for example that the variety of pitches used and choice of correct (in terms of HIP) tuning schemes used for keyboards, may cause some listeners to consider the result ill-tuned, even if the actual tuning is fine enough.
One example of this can be a continuo cello adjusting his tuning to match a harpsichord, away from the "just intonation" we recognise as perfect, and which all string players use as well as choirs, towards the modified temperament of the keyboard, and of course there are any number of schemes for tuning Baroque keyboards, let alone our modern scheme!
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 03 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Busoni had something to say about keyboard tuning.
He said that the human ear has a remarkable ability to perceive what is meant, rather what actually happens, and thus a keyboard in isolation will sound adequately in tune even in mean temperament.
The ear corrects the intervals, naturally. The problem arrises when there is a keyboard playing with other natural instruments or voices, where the nature of the intonation is always an artistic compromise!
In Baroque times some of the tuning schemes were beautifully in tune but only in one key, and acceptable in a handful of related keys. For anyone truly interested in this try looking out for Silbermann's Wolf, which descibes the phenomenon of the Wolf notes on the old tuning schemes on keyboards, most horribly apparent in the key of B Minor! Bach and Silbermann fell out very seriously about this, even then archaic, scheme that Silbermann used for his Organs, whilst Bach wanted to be able to use a much wider range of keys than the old scheme allowed to sound reasonable...
All the best from Fredrik
He said that the human ear has a remarkable ability to perceive what is meant, rather what actually happens, and thus a keyboard in isolation will sound adequately in tune even in mean temperament.
The ear corrects the intervals, naturally. The problem arrises when there is a keyboard playing with other natural instruments or voices, where the nature of the intonation is always an artistic compromise!
In Baroque times some of the tuning schemes were beautifully in tune but only in one key, and acceptable in a handful of related keys. For anyone truly interested in this try looking out for Silbermann's Wolf, which descibes the phenomenon of the Wolf notes on the old tuning schemes on keyboards, most horribly apparent in the key of B Minor! Bach and Silbermann fell out very seriously about this, even then archaic, scheme that Silbermann used for his Organs, whilst Bach wanted to be able to use a much wider range of keys than the old scheme allowed to sound reasonable...
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 03 April 2006 by bhazen
Thank you all (esp. Fredrik, that was in-depth!) for the informative replies; the one thing I forgot to mention is that I still enjoy these recordings very much - the light of a different era comes through the orchestra & harpsichord, it's hard to explain. Baroque and other "early" music is a wonderful escape for me from the occasional ugliness of modern life.
Posted on: 03 April 2006 by Wolf
You go Fredrik. That was a great explination.
about 15 years ago I was on a trip visiting Stanford University south of San Francisco. Nice church there on campus. The stained glass windows are exceptional and I was watching the fast moving cloud shadows change the colors dramatically for half an hour at least. I saw two guys come up the aisle near me that were in deep consultation. They went up to the organ loft and were practising. I left for a tour of the campus, but ended up back there for lunch. Someone was fund raising and a line qued for burgers looked good and out on the greens on a beautiful day. The organist was right behind me so I struck up a conversation. It just kept getting better and better as we sat and ate. He said it was a Fisk organ, one of the scientists responsible for the atomic bomb dedicated the rest of his life to making organs that with the shove of a lever moved between pre Bach and post Bach tuning. We had such a serious discussion about all things in life. Yet I noticed the "serious" students nearby were networking to find the best parties and fun distractions. We would listen to them occasionally and they to us. The guy was an organist in a Harvard chapel and going to give a concert the next day. I got to go up in the loft with him and he demonstrated the keyboards for me. Great fun. The concert next day was wonderful too. But then he was swamped afterwards by students and faculty so I just went my way. I'd had my fulfilling conversation the day before. Quite enlightening.
about 15 years ago I was on a trip visiting Stanford University south of San Francisco. Nice church there on campus. The stained glass windows are exceptional and I was watching the fast moving cloud shadows change the colors dramatically for half an hour at least. I saw two guys come up the aisle near me that were in deep consultation. They went up to the organ loft and were practising. I left for a tour of the campus, but ended up back there for lunch. Someone was fund raising and a line qued for burgers looked good and out on the greens on a beautiful day. The organist was right behind me so I struck up a conversation. It just kept getting better and better as we sat and ate. He said it was a Fisk organ, one of the scientists responsible for the atomic bomb dedicated the rest of his life to making organs that with the shove of a lever moved between pre Bach and post Bach tuning. We had such a serious discussion about all things in life. Yet I noticed the "serious" students nearby were networking to find the best parties and fun distractions. We would listen to them occasionally and they to us. The guy was an organist in a Harvard chapel and going to give a concert the next day. I got to go up in the loft with him and he demonstrated the keyboards for me. Great fun. The concert next day was wonderful too. But then he was swamped afterwards by students and faculty so I just went my way. I'd had my fulfilling conversation the day before. Quite enlightening.
Posted on: 04 April 2006 by andrew sutton
Hi, Fredrik is not correct concerning the tuning of organ pipes, in my experience.
Stopped pipes are retuned by moving the stop in or out. Many stopped wooden pipes (such as flutes) have handles fixed to the plug in the pipe to do this.
Open pipes are tuned by bending a strip of metal in or out of line with the pipe (that is a strip cut vertcally into the top of the pipe) or by sliding a ring of metal placed around the top of the pipe up or down,altering the length of the pipe.
When I was involved in moving and maintaining organs the boss would tune the whole machine by ear(all 5000 pipes, perhaps)starting with a single pitch pipe from which we would lay a scale, usually in the Princpal pipes. From there we would match the whole machine to that scale. The triple stops could be a bit of a business!!
The big problem in tuning was temperature. Some churches could not be persuaded to heat the building to the correct temperature (because of the huge cost) and with the pipes being of so many different materials, variable expansion with temperature could not be allowed for in the tuning process.
Cheers Andy.
Stopped pipes are retuned by moving the stop in or out. Many stopped wooden pipes (such as flutes) have handles fixed to the plug in the pipe to do this.
Open pipes are tuned by bending a strip of metal in or out of line with the pipe (that is a strip cut vertcally into the top of the pipe) or by sliding a ring of metal placed around the top of the pipe up or down,altering the length of the pipe.
When I was involved in moving and maintaining organs the boss would tune the whole machine by ear(all 5000 pipes, perhaps)starting with a single pitch pipe from which we would lay a scale, usually in the Princpal pipes. From there we would match the whole machine to that scale. The triple stops could be a bit of a business!!
The big problem in tuning was temperature. Some churches could not be persuaded to heat the building to the correct temperature (because of the huge cost) and with the pipes being of so many different materials, variable expansion with temperature could not be allowed for in the tuning process.
Cheers Andy.
Posted on: 04 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Andrew,
I am not saying that I have ever tuned an organ, but I have tuned my instrument against one many times. I asked an organist why organs are frequently sharp, and he gave me the explanation I relayed here.
At the time I was in Leominster Priory where the Organ was at Standard Pitch, but which had been high before a rebuild, and this is what sparked the question. I see that he Organist somewhat simplified the issue with stopped pipes!
Fredrik
I am not saying that I have ever tuned an organ, but I have tuned my instrument against one many times. I asked an organist why organs are frequently sharp, and he gave me the explanation I relayed here.
At the time I was in Leominster Priory where the Organ was at Standard Pitch, but which had been high before a rebuild, and this is what sparked the question. I see that he Organist somewhat simplified the issue with stopped pipes!
Fredrik