Talent Isn't Everything

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This got me thinking about good albums produced by talentless people, and how limitations can be the greatest asset of all.

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Never confuse talent with musicianship. A great idea and the ability to get that idea onto tape is all that is required, nothing more. Talent is essential - musicianship is all but irrelevant. The number of exceptionally skilled musicians who do not have great ideas is immense!

Tony.

There was an interesting quote I read from one of the Floyd (I think Roger Waters) back from their early, more experimental days when people were accusing them of "cheating" and not making "proper music". Something like "give someone a guitar and they don't become Eric Clapton, give someone an amplifier and they don't become Pink Floyd".

Another quote related to this, from Kurt Vonnegut's "Bluebeard", when the technically highly proficient illustrator Rabo Karabekian goes for art lessons and is rejected by the teacher he can easily out-draw: "what is the point in me teaching you the language of art, when you have absolutely nothing to say?"

There is, of course, space for craftmanship as well, but an artist directing it appropriately is needed for best results. Otherwise just listen to albums by jazz stars and/or star sessionmen where they never get past displaying "chops"...

Pete.

I'm not sure that Billy Bragg can actually sing, but I think he is a great (and underated) songwriter and his performances are full of emotion.

Bruce

[This message was edited by Bruce Woodhouse on MONDAY 19 August 2002 at 12:37.]

was a crap singer but a superb songwriter.

cheers

Nigel

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Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
(Dylan) crap singer but a superb songwriter.

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But even though he's technically a ghastly singer (and a pretty rough harp as well!) the delivery actually fits the song material, so he can't sing, but can carry a song. Sort of the opposite to Mariah Carey...

Pete.

Bruce & Nigel, - that isn't quite what I meant. Bob & Billy do have quite obvious musical talents, and whatever their vocal shortcomings you listen to them in spite of these rather than because of them [well I don't, but you get the idea].

What I'm on about is where the artist's limitations define their work, and provide a creative spark which enables them to achieve things which more talented people wouldn't be able to.

Take Nico [most of my examples seem to be old ones - unfortunately record labels seem to be generally more conservative nowadays] and her trusty harmonium. Can we imagine her entertaining friends and family with Gems From the Shows and spirited teutonic renditions of Roll Out the Barrel? Can we buggery! No, she just poked at it with two or three fingers long and hard, strangely drawn no doubt to the black keys because they were less confusing and a bit wider apart, and eventually worked up a technique that enabled her to produce two peerless albums capable, as the Amazon review has it,'of rendering any convivial gathering totaly silent within two minutes'.

John Cale must take some of the credit of course, but rather than knocking up a few eerie string arrangements [which he could no doubt have done in a couple of minutes], he manfully resisted, and contented himself with adding the odd bit of creaking and what sounds like scaffolding falling off the back of a lorry.

Nick, I think the Ramones knew exactly what they were doing. I do know that initially they rejected drummers because they could play too well, so one of them [can't remember which] did it instead. Interestingly, do you remember how the music press at the time, which was much less sophisticated then than now, swallowed their whole image and printed gormless interviews etc? I think it's the lyrics that give them away - far too witty - and quotes from obscure Tod Browning films? I think they're as high concept as Devo or the B52's at heart.

The biggest danger for talentless artistes is acquiring musical sophistication. Think of the charm of Marc Bolan c.Beard of Stars, grappling with an unfamiliar electric guitar and Mickey Finn working out which way up to hold the bongos and then what happened later. An awful warning.

throb

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Think of the charm of Marc Bolan c.Beard of Stars, grappling with an unfamiliar electric guitar and Mickey Finn working out which way up to hold the bongos and then what happened later.

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In my opinion that is a whole different kettle of haddock. I personally rate Bolan highly right up to and including Tanx. The hippy naivety of the first 4 Tyrannosaurus Rex albums and the first by T.Rex, through to the glam rebirth of Electric Warrior, Slider and Tanx all had magic, and in all honesty a very similar magic. The magic was their utter simplicity and great songs. After that album he attempted a Bowie like bandwagon hop into soul / funk / black music, and unlike Bowie totally failed to pull it off.

I have got a complete set of Bolan albums (up to his death, none of the reissues etc), but the post Tanx ones certainly never get played! My favourite is probably the first self-titled T.Rex one with the half-gatefold sleeve – the lead guitar on Jewel is amazing!

Tony.

Tony,

You're talking to someone here who after hearing 'Debora' on Top Gear one Saturday, rushed out on the Monday to buy it, and stayed loyally with the elfin one right up to Dandy in the Underworld [in spite of scathing remarks from the direction of Mr Lees], even buying The Warlock Of Love [Edith Sitwell meets Patience Strong up a dark alley] on the first day of publication, and saving my copies of 'International Times' for his impromptu contributions.

1969 for me, is forever the year that Marc plugged his guitar in for 'King of The Rumbling Spires', and any moon landings etc. are a mere footnote to that historic year.

Credentials established, I would agree that musically, 'T.Rex' is probably his finest hour, although I would rate 'Beltane Walk' [Tolkien/Tamla's most incongrouous, - indeed, only - moment] and 'Seagull Woman' as the ne plus ultra of the canon. In the context of this thread however, I would still say that listening to Marc struggling with his Les Paul and by doing so opening unforseen pathways [and he was, let's not forget, a perfectly proficient acoustic guitarist] is the major joy of 'Beard of Stars'.

'Electric Warrior' is both an epiphany and poisoned chalice - the best and the seeds of the worst are both there. I also rate some of the single B-sides of the period [Raw Ramp? Summertime Blues?] as cherishable moments. Of course, after this there are many delightful things, usually about two or three per album [Bolan's Zip Gun, especially] even up to 'Zinc Alloy', where for a moment, I thought that a Phil Spector total over-the-top attitude and a certain knowingness ['Metal Guru's in the loo with my glue' etc.] might yet redeem him, but the joys of fame proved too seductive, together with a total laziness in the matter of original tunes. I suppose Gloria was resposible for the T-Rex Disco Party abberations, and I still hiss at her whenever a tribute prog comes on. What seems unforgiveable however, is that they're always paying tribute to the WRONG Marc Bolan, - the teeny idol, not the innovator of 'Unicorn'.

Incidentally, in a recent HMV sale I picked up some CD re-remasters [on A&M of all labels] of the first few albums, which are really good, esp. 'My People' & 'Prophets...', the former even managing to unravel some of Tony Visconti's appalling production. Marc's back catalogue has been treated shamefully, and I have heard rumours that this is soon to be rectified, though no sign as yet.

throb

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You're talking to someone here who after hearing 'Debora' on Top Gear one Saturday, rushed out on the Monday to buy it, and stayed loyally with the elfin one right up to Dandy in the Underworld [in spite of scathing remarks from the direction of Mr Lees], even buying The Warlock Of Love [Edith Sitwell meets Patience Strong up a dark alley] on the first day of publication, and saving my copies of 'International Times' for his impromptu contributions.

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You must have a few years on me – I got into T.Rex as a 9-year-old kid with Hot Love and Children of the revolution etc. My first ever album purchase was The Slider in 72 or 73. In other words I started with the teeny-bop glam stuff and back-catalogued from there. By the time I was 11 I had all the records (which got mashed up on the horrible turntable in the family radiogram); by 13 I had persuaded my friends dad to take us to see T.Rex live (my first gig) on the Futuristic Dragon tour. The next year Gloria Jones drove him into a tree and I became a punk…

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Credentials established, I would agree that musically, 'T.Rex' is probably his finest hour, although I would rate 'Beltane Walk' [Tolkien/Tamla's most incongrouous, - indeed, only - moment] and 'Seagull Woman' as the ne plus ultra of the canon.

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I’ve got Beard of Stars on the turntable at the moment and its bloody marvellous. I had forgotten just how good it was! I agree about Seagull woman as well, that is a spectacular bit of minimalism – a fabulous song.

I re-bought all of the albums over the years to get them in decent condition (it took three goes to get a good copy of T.Rex!), though I only have the first four on the doubleback Fly issues, not Zonophone originals. I’ve still got all my mashed up 45s!

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In the context of this thread however, I would still say that listening to Marc struggling with his Les Paul and by doing so opening unforseen pathways [and he was, let's not forget, a perfectly proficient acoustic guitarist] is the major joy of 'Beard of Stars'.

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I rate Bolan incredibly highly as a guitarist – he always had a knack of doing exactly the right thing, no more, no less. That puts him in the tiniest minority of rock guitarists! It really pisses me off when he never comes up in guitarist polls – Bolan is worth a thousand widdly-widdly-widdly merchants such as Van-Halen or Vai.

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What seems unforgiveable however, is that they're always paying tribute to the WRONG Marc Bolan, - the teeny idol, not the innovator of 'Unicorn'.

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I agree with this. The problem is that the majority of T.Rex fans who speak up now are middle-aged housewives who have fond memories of screaming hysterically at gigs in 1972. People who were lucky enough to have witnessed the Tyrannosaurus Rex days probably took the correct amount of LSD (i.e. too much) and can’t remember anything about it… What’s your excuse?

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Marc's back catalogue has been treated shamefully, and I have heard rumours that this is soon to be rectified, though no sign as yet.

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I noticed that they brought out Electric Warrior with loads of additional stuff last year (I didn't buy it); I wonder if they will go through the rest in a similar way.

Tony.

...although slightly too young to be a proper hippy [b.1952]and later slightly too old to be a punk. Yearned for gothdom as well, but being a teacher at the time thought it best not, on the whole.

Just missed the Steve Took Tyrannosurus Rex [guests on a provincial Bowie tour to Launch Man Who Sold The World, but couldn't be bothered to come back from London .... silly, silly me], but with Nick saw the Ride A White Swan tour. The first half was accoustic, the second electric with drums & bass [Mickey not trusted with a bass guitar live, so had to inaudibly bongo at the back]culminating in a 15min The Wizard. The sound, unusually for Birmingham Town Hall was spot on, and the whole show had the tight crisp sound of the single.

The next time was at the Birmingham Odeon, with a seven or eight piece band, climaxing with Marc returning to the stage in a gold lame suit to perform [I think] Rip Off. Transformation into rock-god complete, there were moist gussets all round. Poor Mickey's transformation sadly[microphone turned off by now, I think]was more that of Cynthia to Marc's Hylda Baker. It was impressive at the time, but even then rather self indulgent. Half the fans thought it was a sellout, the other half an ironic conceit. It quickly became apparent what was really going on, and most of his old fanbase [except me]completely dropped away.

Mr Lees, incidentally, at the time was a dead spit for His Marciness and had vast clouds of corkscrew curls, the envy of all who saw them [except possibly his father]. Maybe if we ask nicely, he'll show us?

throb

a total babe

To me one of the most important things that I loo for when buying music is that the musicians sound like they are enjoying themselves.

This is true of the Fischerspooner album and Electric Warrior ( I have actually bought this album more times than any other - I actually bought it on CD three years before I bought a CD player) and most of the music I like in between.

I also recommend the Black Rebel Motorcycle Club album.


Bananahead

I'm a year older than Throbnorth and I remember my music lessons at grammar school where there was a definite split between those who'd bring in Tyrannosaurus Rex albums for our entertainment and the likes of me who favoured The Incredible String Band. It seemed impossible to enjoy both.
By the way in the next Desert Island Discs the guest is the Archbishop of Canterbury and one of his choices is a String Band song!

A trivia nugget - Rose from the Incredible String Band became for a while the Lady Mayoress of Llandudno. Strange but true.

throb