HDX hidef redux

Jon

Good questions Jon.

In the Naim white paper it says

The HDX is not limited to 16 bit 44.1kHz, the internal architecture is 24 bit 192kHz. Although music ripped from CD is 16 bit the HDX has been designed with future formats in mind ..... There are now a significant number of sites selling 24 bit 96kHz and 88kHz music downloads. The Naim
Label will be releasing the majority of its catalogue in hires audio format over the next two years.

Don't know if that helps - would the HDX rip an SACD to hi-res, I wonder?

How do you get hi-res on to it?

This is a fascinating development.

ATB Rotf

I've personally tested it with 24 / 192 WAV files on both a USB flash drive and on network-attached storage, and it works a charm–however, sourcing these files is the fundamental issue.

There is no need to store hi-res files on the server itself, this keeps things secure such that the only audio files located there have been ripped by the server itself.

At present, there is no known commercially-available application to rip stereo hi-res files from SACD (requires conversion to PCM) or DVD-A discs–also, it is important to point out that not all DVD-A discs have a hi-res stereo mix (as this is not required by the standard).

dD,

Can I simply connect 3-4 external HDs though a USB "router", then into the HDX's USB in?

Does it have to be NAS?

Also, are there limitations to the USB input of the HDX? Must it be a "flash" drive? Has a large external drive been used successfully?

thanks,
patrick

Thanks Dave for the reply.

So I'd need Network Attached Storage to benefit from hi-res. I think I'll keep a watchful eye and see how things develop.

ATB Rotf

You can also use a large USB disk, though this can only be seen by the HDX or NS-series server–I'd be more inclined, myself, to park large amounts of data on the network.

dD,

Excuse my ignorance. Despite illusions, I am not a computer geek. PC audio geek, I guess so. So I am not completely sure about what NAS actually is. Other than what a wiki tells me.

If i have three 1 TB external drives, exactly what else is needed?

Do i then have them connected to a PC somewhere and use the ethernet input in the HDX from a router of some sort?

I am curious exactly how i access my data "through" the HDX.

I was under the impression that the HDX was intended to get away from using a PC, since a PC is incapable of being a worthy source.

It seems that a PC will be needed in conjunction with the HDX in all situations, unless you never plan on playing hi-res, or exceeding the 400GB HDX drive.

Is that correct?

thanks,
Patrick

Network-attached storage (in comparison to locally-attached storage, say, USB or FireWire) requires some sort of network service (for example, a local embedded processor in a NAS drive housing) to arbitrate file-sharing services across an Ethernet (wired or wireless) network.

A PC is not required to play back hi-res files, nor is it required to access storage on network volumes, either.

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
...requires some sort of network service (for example, a local embedded processor in a NAS drive housing) to arbitrate file-sharing services across an Ethernet (wired or wireless) network.

I guess a trip to the computer store is in order.

I have no idea what the above is???

"a local embedded processor in a NAS drive housing" is that a kind of stripped down PC?

In my particular situation, I have three 1TB USB/Firewire/Esata, hard drives, and a Windows XP PC.

Do i need to buy anything else to use my drives with the HDX?

Can my PC perform the same function as "a local embedded processor in a NAS drive housing"?

The reason I ask, is becasue I dont have any "network" at home, as far as I know??? I have the following:

- HDs galore
- A PC
- A MAC
- A wireless router so anyone's laptops can access internet wirelessly.
- A modem that sends the info from the wall, to the router.

thanks,
Patrick

Patrick

Network Attached Storage (NAS) is a special computer that contains disks. It has no keyboard or screen. If you had one with a wireless connection then any device on your wireless network could make use of the disks. The HDX would need an Ethernet cable between to connect to your router (assuming your router has a spare Ethernet port, most do).

It can start to become complicated though as you have to make sure that you don't accidentally delete files from the NAS or somebody else on your wireless network doesn't. So you need to put permission on your files or controls to say who can edit your music collection. I hope I haven't made this sound worse than it really is.

I understand the technology because it is my job (a rather boring job if I'm honest), I'm not yet convinced I want all this computer stuff at home.

I was hoping I could just put the HDX on a shelf on my Fraim and use it to play hi-res music from its hard disk and its performance would better a CDS3 playing the same stuff on CD. If it could do that and play my old CDs as well as my CDX2 then I'd definitely think about one.

Perhaps the HDX2 .... I realise it takes time and I am concerned about connecting anything I value as highly as my music collection to the Internet. Even though I've got a network address translator, application firewall and intrusion prevention system to protect my DSL connection. Even paranoids have enemies. I guess if I downloaded music from Naim and it was lost then Naim would allow me to download it again - so it is pretty safe.

ATB Rotf

PC, it's the way to go. The NAS will also perform a raid backup of your music files as well. It is then connected by ethernet to your HDX and/or PC if you want. The software from Naim that you will get will allow you to access the music on the NAS and direct it to your HDX. Furthermore any downloaded files from Naim/Linn/Chesky whatever will not be able to be stored on the HDX only "ripped copies", so if you purchase on-line music you will need to store it somewhere and the NAS is perfect for this (large store/raid back-up) and easily expandible. For those really batty about losing their collection you can even attach an additional USB connected NAS to you original NAS and have this perform an additional back-up of your music or add more TB to the NAS until it is filled. The raid is important for two reasons:

1. Back-up and raid of ripped music once you've exceeded the capacity of the HDX.

2. Most downloads will not let you re-download, so you need to ensure you have back-up for the music.

As far as a NAS is concerned you just need to decide if you want it to perform any other functions or just storage.

1.If just raid storage those from Lacie are excellent.

2. If you want computer back-up for your PC, web hosting and remote access to your home PC then a Windows Home Server is excellent. Easy to install and use. If you do this definitely get Avast software as it is designed to work with window home server specifically. They also have a free addition for your home PC.

3. Always use a back-up battery for your NAS or other computer devices for obvious reasons.

I think this sums it up.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
1.If just raid storage those from Lacie are excellent.

2. If you want computer back-up for your PC, web hosting and remote access to your home PC then a Windows Home Server is excellent. Easy to install and use. If you do this definitely get Avast software as it is designed to work with window home server specifically. They also have a free addition for your home PC.

Gary

Hmmm -- i have a pile of dead lacie power supplies here. Its not a vendor I would recommend.

As for home server -- lets wait and see if Microsoft's fatal file system bug is fixed by the forthcoming bug fix before recommending its completely proprietory file system stuffed on top of NTFS for long term storage.

Remember, there are two types of people in the world -- those who have suffered significant data loss, and those who havent yet...

Gary1, ROTF,

Thanks for the clarification.

I am already fully backed up, and to RAID 3TBs would cost me some significant cash. I have ALL of my files backed up to DVD. And I have most of the original CDs that they came from. So backup is not a huge concern.

Can I attach my existing drives to a NAS, or do I use their internal drives etc??

So if I am clear on a few things.... In order to have external storage on an HDX, my options are.

- One external USB drive of any type, but only one at a time.
- NAS via ethernet.
- NAS via wireless ethernet, to a "router" near the HDX?

I already have a computer in the room?????? It is dead silent and has 3 external 1 TB drives attached. Bluetooth Keyboard and mouse to listening position. HDTV as monitor.

Is this something I could not incorporate into the HDX?

I would still need to buy a NAS box? And find one compatible with my existing drives?


I feel like I am missing something.... I thought the HDX was for the non-computer users. Who in the world has an NAS without a PC???? How would they possibly interface with it? Or would they buy one to use solely with 24/96 files for a Naim kit. Seems strange?

And I am starting to feel like I am going to have even more PC equipment than I do now, if I buy an HDX.

I am, once again, feeling closer to wanting a nice external DAC. It is just so tough to demo them....


Confused...
Patrick

Another question...

Can the HDX rip discs to the NAS, once the HDX internals are full?

Or would I continue to use my PC and EAC for that?

PC, Yes you can rip directly from the HDX to the NAS. As Dave answered my qustion earlier Naim is in the process of tweaking the software so that you can choose to store ripped files to your NAS as opposed to the HDX hard drive. Of course this only becomes necessary after you've filled the 400GB raided hard drive. No neeed for PC/EAC!!

See Paul Stephenson's response below:

"The hdx concept is pure and wonderfully simple a fully integrated solution offering naim quality performance which will sit happily into any of our hifi systems easily and can be further upgraded with power supplies etc.
We chose this since it does not lead to potential poor third party service issues with the HDD mechanisms, and storage which might be kept in some crummy pc with below par mechs for ripping and maybe without secure back up.
Many of our customers are music loving, hifi enthusiasts who would almost never think about spending valuable time setting up drives, interfaces, nas storage, wireless connections and the hdx will be heaven for them.
Sure there are other ways to achieve moving files around and there are many pitfalls also, I guess its up to the individual to decide whats best for them."

I think that answer's your question in a nutshell.

Finally, there are a few ways to connect to the HDX: ethernet, usb. For me I want the ethernet since my NAS is in a spearate room in my home,but you can certainly use any NAS that you want in the system. Dave just says that it needs to be connected with a secure connection and I'm forgetting the terminology he used, but it's a straight forward setting which you set up.

Seems like what you have would be fine, the raid is your choice, but from where I sit having a raided copy on you storage device would be prudent. Remember you don't have to buy 3TB at once. For $200 you can start with 750 GB and direct a backup of your HDX ripped music files only or downloaded music. If you already have all of your CD's in your possession then your somewhat safe, but if you don't have it raided and your current system crashes you will need to re-rip everything.

Gary1,

I have been doing this for years..... I have all of the ingredients, save the DAC.

I already have three 1 TB drives. Plus 2 750s, a 320 and a handfuly of "Passport" drives.
I have already "Properly" ripped ALL of my CDs (over 2000) to FLAC.
I have already transferred ALL of my vinyl to 24/96 FLACs.

As I mentioned above, ALL of my rips are already FULLY backed up. RAID is not really needed because I never "change" the data at all. So "synching" is not needed in my music system.

I have EVERY SINGLE ALBUM backed up once to DVD. Then I have 1.5TB of the most important stuff (vinyl rips that I cannot remake easily, favorites, etc) backed up to my 2x750s. If I happen to lose a drive, I only need to transfer the files back onto a new one.

For my listening, I have the three FULL 1TBs. Of course there more music that is on DVD only. But these are rare listens. When i want to hear one of those I simply put the corresponding DVD into my drive and import it into Foobar.


In any case.... I have about 5 TB of very nice Seagates with 5 year warranties, not including the internal drives which i dont use. So i am not needing any more space in the least. Nor will I spend any more money on drives. Not for a long time.

So in order to use these drives, what kind of NAS do I need. I would need one that works with my existing drives. Is that possible?


And yes, I read Paul's comments. But it sounds to me like once 24/96 recording are widely available, every HDX owner will need to set-up an NAS, or attach a huge USB drive to play them.

And if storage space and accessing that data is not important, and the 400GB HDX capacity is sufficient, do you think many will be sold? How many people will spend $10K to be able to hold 500 CDs? That they already own, and have a nice CDP for.

Just a thought.

PC:
1. Can't you just connect you current drives, which I assume are in some type of casing, to the HDX with a USB port. I don't understand the problem with your current Seagate drives.

2. Yes, at this point everyone who purchases the HDX will need to remotely store downloaded music, either PC/NAS, etc..

3. Personally I really don't like dealing with my CD's and would much prefer to do without them. The HDX will also give you the opportunity to do different playlists to add more variety to your listening if you so choose.

and

4. The real plus is the ability to play 24/96 for better quality. So you can combine all of your 16 and 24 bit material to playback with one device instead of two.

While Naim could definitely have done the same HDX without the HDD component and let you rip to PC/NAS with software, Paul states above why they did not go in that direction. It still does not however, eliminate the need for a connected PC or NAS when you either exceed the HDD or download music. So your guess is as good as mine as to why choices were made as they were.

Gary1,

Thanks for the thoughts....

in response...

#1 - That is unfortunate. What "problem" are you referring to that you dont understand?

#2 - And is HAS to be an NAS? So my $1000 of drives are useless with the HDX?

#3 - I agree. It is exactly why i started ripping stuff a long time ago. But playlists?? I think Foobar will exceed there. Also the interface with an HDTV and mouse and keyboard are ideal in my book. I

#4 - I do that now, very, very nicely from my PC to my Beresford.


So, it appears that if I buy an HDX, i will still need to purchase an NAS, which will cost over $1000 just to be able to equal my listening capacity as of now.

Also, I would need some kind of router, as well as more cords and cables...

Looks I am destined to keep searching for a better DAC, and buy a nice Naim CDP for "critical" listening.

I thought if i bought an HDX, i would ONLY be using its DAC, and wasting all of the rest of components and features. Simliar to using a Supernait as a power amp only.

That is true, but i would also have to buy MORE PC equipment and have $1000 worth of useless Hard drives.....

That is NOT an option in any way.

Bummer.

Back to the drawing board.

I think it is unfortunate that I cannot use my existing drives. This is not commonly known. Once it is I think MANY will go a different way.

The necessity of a NAS is a huge mistake.

PC the HDX does not have an "external DAC" plug in like the SN. If you are considereing a reference CDP from Naim the you are really looking at the CD5x which is much superior to the CD5i-2 and with the FC2x it is really good. This costs $4500. At this point you really need to consider possibly the NS01 at $6000 and obviously for more money there is the HDX.

I'm just one who has listened and feel that without spending a fortune that the SN has the best DAC I've heard and use it with my Sonos. Even thought this sounds really good it is no comparison to the CD5x/FC2x. I bought the SN beacause I love the way it sounds and the DAC is just a bonus. I didn't buy the SN for "the DAC."

I still don't understand the NAS issue. Do you have your drives in a separate case which is separate from your PC or is it part of your PC. If it's part of your PC that's your "NAS." If it's in a separate case then just hook that up to the HDX with the USB port from the case or etherenet if you like.

Gary1,

Yes I know there is no digital input on the HDX. My HDX DAC comment concerns the following.

I am not going to use the HDX's internal storage nor its disc drive. I will rip the way I always have, which is to FLAC in my PC. I would not use the touch screen, and would require my HDTV to display what is happening. SOOOOOO, i i would only really be utilizing the DAC in the HDX. WHich seems like a huge waste of the rest of it contents and capabilities.

And yes the Supernait is on my list. Until one fits in my budget, I must use an external DAC. It is the first piece of Naim kit i ever heard. IT is what turned me on in the first place. Unfortunately it was $2000 more than my entire budget. Said budget netted me a 102/180/Ariva/NACA5 and a Berseford.

The drives are Seagate Free Agent Pro - 3TB external Hard Drive.
http://computers.pricegrabber.com/hard-drives/m/54601870/

They are USB/Firewire/Esata.

All three are connected via USB to my PC. Standard fare.

Are you saying that my PC can "function" as a NAS? I thought you said my drives couldn't be used, as a NAS is an actual piece of equipment that would not accept them.

If I can use my drives and my PC without buying anything else. We are getting closer.

thanks for the help.

The Naim HDX can access files on NAS. It presumably uses NFS (Network File System). For a PC to act as a NAS you need to export its file system as NFS then the HDX could see it and make use of it. I don't know enough about PCs to know how do this, but on a Mac you just start Personal File Sharing under System Preferences:Sharing:Services.

Need Naim to confirm the HDX does indeed use NFS and not a different file sharing protocol like CIFS (Common Internet File System).

ATB Rotf

Should be CIFS / Samba, just as with the NS-series servers.

PC, if you can USB your drives to the PC the you can do so to the NS01 or HDX. The added benefit of the "all in one" HDX is it will also double as your CD player if you wish as well since as you state you do not have a Naim CDP at this time. The real question will be playback quality of the unit and what level it falls into and if there is a difference large or small between the HDX as a "CD player" vs. playback of ripped files. of course this does not take into account the ability to play 24/96.

Gary1,

If i understand your statement correctly, you say i can DIRECTLY connect my 3 HDs to the HDX?

I thought there was only one USB input.

I asked previously if I could connect a "USB Hub" to this single input, and have all three, or more, HDs connected to the hub. I thought I was told no.


Soooo, it sounds as if I can make my existing PC "act" like an NAS. Then exactly how do I connect it to the HDX?

Via ethernet?


ROTF,

Sweet, I can figure that out easily. I will look into this.


gary1,

I understand everything about the HDX in terms of "why". I am trying to get to the bottom of "how".

How exactly are my drives connected, how do I make my PC act like a NAS, and by which means is that all connected to the HDX.

thanks,
patrick

quote:

Originally posted by David Dever:
Should be CIFS / Samba, just as with the NS-series servers.

After all, an HDX is a Windows computer running Windows XP Embedded.

...part of it, anyway–it's the other part that keeps everything rolling.

quote:

gary1,

I understand everything about the HDX in terms of "why". I am trying to get to the bottom of "how".

How exactly are my drives connected, how do I make my PC act like a NAS, and by which means is that all connected to the HDX.

Call us in Chicago–I can explain this to you much better.