Mana Soundbases under my Naos

Posted by: Steve Toy on 21 February 2002

During my trip to Edinburgh I obviously got the chance to hear Top Cat's system...

When the neighbours had gone out, and we could turn the wick up a bit, it blew me away.

It plays tunes, man!

As you may well be aware, TC no longer uses Mana under his equipment...

However, he still uses some specially made Soundbases under his Neat Gravitas/Elite speakers.

I noticed that the bass is much firmer and more tuneful than at my place.

So, given how great his system sounds with Mana under his speakers, I am now ready to try the same under mine.

So, I have the following options in my small room:

1) Ditch the Naos - they are too big for my room, and get me some standmounters for around the same price or more.

2) Put some Soundbases under my Naos.

3) Ditch the Naos for another floorstander which is tighter in the mid/upper bass, and still get the Soundbases.

So guys, what do you reckon?

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

Posted on: 21 February 2002 by Steve Toy

quote:
Your account suggests that Mana is the significant component in TC's system.

I do indeed.

Under his speakers.

The presence of these ferrous objects also does nothing to destroy the tune.

I am most encouraged by this.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

Posted on: 21 February 2002 by Steve Toy

quote:
even the cowards

Cowardly towards what exactly? confused

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

Posted on: 21 February 2002 by Mike Sae

As you know, I've always considered the Naos as a groovy, yet boomy speaker. Perhaps you've outgrown the Naos (as I have the entire Rega speaker line) and it's time for a speaker with better bass tunefulness and coherency. Incidentally, I just had a big debate about Naos speakers with someone who e-mailed me privately, his position being that I was a deaf young whippersnapper.

quote:
The presence of these ferrous objects also does nothing to destroy the tune.

Neither do the honkin' speaker magnets...

Posted on: 22 February 2002 by Peter Stockwell

Steve,

This has to be a personal taste issue. I've had both through my hifi meanderings and now I'm squarely in the standmounter camp. For my personal taste I wouldn't consider floorstanders until I had two things:

a) loadsamoney (c. £2k, for example)
b) loadsaspace (c. 40m2)

It's true to say that ultimately you are going to take the same floor space, but to my eyes a standmounter is less dominant visually. The undeniable advantage of a standmout speaker is that there is less cabinet to resonate, but you do have to worry about the stands. In our lounge, c. 24m2, I get more that satisfactory bass if the recording contains it from speakers with a 165mm bass/mid unit.

I would push you towards standmounts.

Peter

PS. On your system I can imagine the dynaudio contour 1.1 or 1.3 sounding great, when I have the rest of the system up to par this is what I'd like to try as my next speaker upgrade.

Posted on: 22 February 2002 by Top Cat

...having never heard Steven's speakers, but knowing my own better than anyone else (obviously!) I can add a few points.

The Mana bases work. I previously used two flattops with boards, which did good things, and then had the opportunity to buy a pair of (unique) custom made stands for my Neats. This improved things further. However, the biggest improvement I noticed was moving from the relatively humble DNM Reson speaker cable to Nordost Red Dawn*.

So, in order of improvement, we're talking Nordost > Custom Stands > Soundbases/flattops > DNM wire

In the context of my own system, I have to add. Mana is not the only significant factor, but it is a factor and whilst it was doing bad things to the musical integrity of my system, it seems to work without any problems under my Neats. YMMV.

Another factor is tweaking. I started using the Mana stands with blutac under the Gravitas, then some 3M-alike feet (but bigger) - as recommended. However, neither really improved tangibly over the flattops I'd been using. I experimented with a couple of things and settled on the 'dumpy' Mana spikes used as speaker spikes, which were tuned to the glass (by inverting the Gravitas and 'tuning' the Mana glass as one would with a rack, just a smidgeon beyond finger tight and totally true to level so that the glass 'pings'). I had already levelled the glass relative to the stands so I had and have a situation whereby the Mana glass is in tune with its stand and the speaker in turn is in tune with the Mana glass. This improves bass response dramatically over regular bases, but tuning is more critical than ever, as any rocking destroys the improvement and then some.

I have to categorically state for the record that whilst this improvement is significant, the Nordost cable provided a bigger improvement, although at a higher price than the Mana stands, so it ought to be better, really.

The last key ingredient is SPM Reference between pre and power amps. This is the fastest interconnect that I've yet come across by a considerable margin, and all the bass that is delivered is ultra defined and controlled. Without this last ingredient, I wasn't getting the full amount out of the speakers.

Steven seemed very impressed with the sound I was getting, and I attribute a lot of that to the CDX (which is why I'm now considering at least a CDX for myself) but the super fast and controlled bass is a product of both the Isobaric loaded Gravitas speaker, the superfast and clean Nordost cabling, the 'tweaked' Mana speaker stands and the use of DNM amplification (which is superfast anyway, but that's not to say a 52-based system couldn't do the same - I'm sure it could).

Hope this helps,

* SPM Reference being too bloody expensive and Valhalla being all of the above multiplied by four.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 22 February 2002 by Top Cat

Try to borrow some bases to try. They will give you a flavour of what a custom stand can do. Bear in mind that the Gravitas are reknowned for fast, tight bass anyway, so perhaps it's an unfair comparison. Lastly, try to borrow a couple of alternative speaker cables to see if that helps. It did for me by a huge margin, but maybe it wouldn't for you.

The Used Cable Company is where I got my SPM. Although US based, they will happily send any purchases over here and mark the value as nominal for the purposes of HMC&E. I got my 1m SPM phono:phono (which is at Nordost being re-terminated) for £480 all-in, including UPS insured carriage plus twenty quid duty and fees. They also have a number of decent speaker cables in and around the 2m to 4m lengths - longer runs are rarer. Red Dawn would be a great cable to try, but Blue Heaven at 1/2 the price will give you a flavour of whether it is a cabling issue at stake.

JW@Mana will advise about Mana options, and you might also want to try listening to some other makes of speaker as a reference. I recommend Neat Petites, because they simply shine with my kit. You were impressed with Briks, and they're cheap and reasonably available, so it's an option (if rather large). You can also try those Audio Physic speakers we saw - fantastic brand, not generally well known here, but I can vouch for them as being phenomenal, and £1500 would get you on the ladder with the rather nice looking Tempo III - speak to James about a demo.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 22 February 2002 by Steve G

Soundbases are cheap (£175 a pair) so even if you try them and don't like them I doubt you're likely to lose more than £80 or so by selling them on 2nd hand.

Regards
Steve

Posted on: 25 February 2002 by Martin C

Hi Steve T/C, Top Cat,

I am always very interested to know more about Mana Soundbases for SBL, I wanted to get them in several occasions, at the end, I didn't, I even went to the Cornflakes shop, they do not have them to demo, they suggested me to go directly to Mana. Besides mana have 14 days money back guarantee, but I am always waiting for 02 weeks which I can spend time to listen to them, that's why it still not happenning. can you tell me more about them, I will use them on carpet now (suspended floor board) and later woodfloor when I move.

Your help is appreciated. If GBP 175.- can improve the sound what people suggested, (they just said they are good, get them!!), it is definitely worth it.

cheers
Martin

Posted on: 25 February 2002 by Top Cat

Bases should work on either surface OK. They do tighten up the bass a lot, and some have reported increased detail - I noticed a bit myself. Drawbacks is that they are not the most aesthetically pleasant proposition for the living room and also they raise the height of the speaker which may or may not look 'right'. Both cosmetic considerations, but bear in mind my stands are not soundbases, they are custom-made for the Neats (although I bought them s/h). Makes a bit more of an improvement over bases, I'd say.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 25 February 2002 by Ade Archer

I keep coming close to ordering a pair for my SBL's. I'm not really bothered by the aesthetics, they don't appear to be hideous, since I have a 'listening room'. It's just that, even with the return option, I've wanted to be certain their effect is completely positive. I think my concern is that I often hear that they tighten up the bass, but I don't suffer from flabby bass, so I worry that they'll sound lean afterwards. Are they an upgrade as such, or a fix if you have a setup problem such as dodgy floors

Cheers
Ade

Posted on: 25 February 2002 by Steve Toy

Since Stallion's visit today, and the few tweaks he has performed to my system, I have decided not to get rid of my speakers, because they work just fine.

I have also decided not to get Mana, because he has demonstrated the non-ferrous effect by removing a few ferrous objects from my listening room, as well as re-dessing the cables, changing the order of the equipment plugged into the mains block, removing objects which resonate like my table lamp, and other odds and ends including a wire-cutter, my remote control units...

Oh, and my Mana Spirit Level which he handed to me as though it were unclean!

He also placed a towel over a mirror to stop it from resonating.

We kept going back to the same track after each change.

There is definitely something in all that non-ferrous shite because there was a marked difference when certain ferrous objects which do not resonate were removed.

Then you should have seen my face - it was like this:

I am now going to get some marble blocks for under my speakers along with Nordost Pulsar Points.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

Posted on: 25 February 2002 by Greg Beatty

...if at least some of the difference in bass performance with the bases is due to the change in height of the bass drivers. The spreadsheets and other things I've read about in-room speaker performance indicate that raising the speaker (from a low position) will increase bass and can change bass quality at the listening position.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Posted on: 25 February 2002 by Ade Archer

quote:
raising the speaker (from a low position) will increase bass and can change bass quality at the listening position.

I've actually found the opposite to be true. My SBL's seem to produce more bass when directly on the floor.

Cheers
Ade

PS
Steven,
Since being 'Fraimed' I've got some boxed Pulsar Points surplus to requirements.

Posted on: 25 February 2002 by Steve Toy

Thanks for that, I may take you up on the offer, but I need eight of them for my speakers.

Also, I haven't yet checked the screw diameter of my Naos' spikes. The speakers are still rather firmly anchored and dead level after quite a laborious process of getting them that way a few months back.

Thus I am too lazy to move them until I have got the bits I need that will work.

Regards,

Steve.

The proof of the pudding...

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on TUESDAY 26 February 2002 at 03:42.]

Posted on: 26 February 2002 by Ade Archer

I've got twenty (5 sets) of 8mm

Cheers
Ade

Posted on: 26 February 2002 by Top Cat

Just out of interest, how much are you looking to get for them (per set of 4)?

I'd be keen to try them out under speakers...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Posted on: 26 February 2002 by Ade Archer

I've e-mailed you!

Cheers
Ade

Posted on: 26 February 2002 by Ade Archer

Has anyone out there got, or had, a Fraim/SBLs/Sound Bases setup, and if so does it work well.
If there weren't so many opposing opinions of Mana the decision would be easy. Do the Sound Bases create less controversy than the equipment supports, which appears to be the case. I've tried a number of different home made options, but there always seems to compromises in whatever I try.

Oh, and if I do order some, how long do they take to arrive?

Cheers
Ade

[This message was edited by Ade Archer on TUESDAY 26 February 2002 at 16:57.]