CD or not CD (SACD, DVA-A)

Louis - not at the moment.

I got a batch of Warner DVD-A's [6 for £30, so who could resist?] to use on my cheapo, though apparently quite respectable sonically, Cambridge DVD / DVD-A player. In stereo, although pleasant enough, there was nothing about them to convince me that this was the format of the future [they do have very nice cases and a taller booket though!]. I should say at this point that this Warner crop was only encoded at 96hz, some way short of the maximum, and thus perhaps not a fair trial. Technically, both DVD-A & SACD are obviously superior, but if you can't hear the difference on an average system, then they're never going to take off, are they? Whatever one's feelings about vinyl/CD, CD did have some pretty obvious advantages to the average punter who wasn't in the market for replacing his Garrard autochanger with an LP12.

If Sony took a deep breath and swallowed the extra manufacturing costs [a few pence, really] and made good on its erstwhile promise to release everything it produced as a SACD with CD layer, then the new format could be introduced with a minimum of pain and real benefits to audiophiles. As an added bonus, Sony would have an unrippable medium [well - sort of, as SACD players don't have digital out as yet], and a huge advantage over DVD-A, which if you check the available titles, is in a bit of a crap state for a superformat that has been around for four years. DVD-A doesn't seem to be as well covered for piracy potential, even though it may be technically superior [although it's not worth arguing about in this context]. Also, producing a DVD-A with a CD layer doesn't seem to be as easy as was first thought.

The spanner in the works is the surround sound thing. Although in stereo differences are not readily apparent to the average punter, in 3D they might be [let's forget for a moment the aesthetics of Queen bounding around your living room in a totally unrealistic and bizarre manner - it's only the same as GWR steam trains moving from left to right on your average 1959 stereo demonstration LP .... thest things soon pass, and with time, hearing the acoustic of a church recording of some Bach will prove very rewarding, I think. With the artificial nature of rock/dance/electronica, anything is surely permissable - it's up to the taste & competence of the artist to make it work] For the normal punter with a £300 DVD surround system, then these things could be a real advance. If they like it, then the 3D future is secured.

All this, of course doesn't take into account the extreme costs an audiophile would have to endure to make the concept work. You have to forget imaging and go for a diffuse speaker set up to even approach any kind of realism. Then there's cost of the amplification, the problem of a sweet spot to sit in .... it just goes on and on.

Whatever the eventual outcome, buying conventional CD's will always be catered for in any future equipment. SACD & DVD-A have been around for a few years now, with little effect on the market. I wouldn't hold your breath.

throb

[This message was edited by throbnorth on THURSDAY 04 September 2003 at 19:04.]

I agree with the front end of what you say Throb. On the surround side we part company a bit.

I admit to beinging into SACD and DVD-A from when I still worked in the USA before coming to NAIM for high quality stereo.

1) DVD-A is less consistent than SACD in sound delivery partly because it spun out of Cinema DVD with no specific sonics oriented company behind it.
Nevertheless the format is begining to mature. The majority of sound engineers seemed to have got past the "little boy let loose in a toy shop" problem where they played it for effect shifting sound around the channels with no sense.

2) SACD with the specific backing of SONY who has the music library to support disk issues and the sound processing expertise to go with it from both Cinema and audio has been that bit more audiophile all along (I don't count Philips on the audio delivery side, only the technology)
The one thing that is a fact is that SONY produces matched SACD players and Multichannel amps which are tuned to give the best from "their" format. I play DVD-A through a Pioneer DVD player itno the Sony Amp and SACD through Sony SACD player into the same amp. I can hear the difference. SACD "fits"the combination like a glove. DVD-A is a liitle brash and uncontrolled.

3) The suround format is more forgiving of speaker setup than might be exepceted. Certainly my front main speakers are optimized for the NAIM stereo. The rest just got put in the logocal places and then balanced using a DB meter ( a cheapo device from keene elctronics or radio shack) and the setup menu on the amp. It sounds pretty good to me.

4) Software IS still an issue but is improving, again more on SACD with the complete Dylan and Rolling stones plus James Taylor thru'to Allison Krauss and historic stuff like "Dark side of the Moon" and "Tubular Bells" which incidentally both sound excellent in suuround and also in SACD stereo.
I have a DVD-A or two which also sound pretty good in surround. For example BACH organ recording in a church. Pat Metheney. Eric Clapton, the Corrs, Fleetwood Mac and of course the Eagles and Steely Dan.
I admit I pick most of it up in the states when over there on business since they DO stock a lot in chain music stores.

5) The other format which is bloody good for music is DTS. I have a Sheryl Crow DTS ES 6.1 channel disc that sounds fantastic and standard DTS discs from the likes of Sting, Joe Cocker, McCartney and the Moody Blues are also very good. In fact DTS has been gaining good reviews in the press . There is quite a consensus that it sounds better than DVD-A overall which I do agree with.

Having said all that you have to put aside the un-naturallness of these approaches to audio else you will never be able to enjoy them.

I seem to be able to do that with ease, others can't.

regards
GEOFFP

Yes...

I see your point...

But as Paolo said "For the likes of the people that read this forum, we'd probably all like to have digital of better "

So, why doesn´t NAIM build one ??? maybe "for the likes of the people that read this forum" we all liked a NAIM CD5+ /CDX2+ /CDS3+ (+ Means with SACD/DVA-A capability)

OK

I do agree that the sort of CD audio quality delivered by NAIM is superior. I have a CDX2 and when I return to CD from DVD-A or SACD it is like "coming home" there is a quality to the music delivery which cannot be beaten at present.
However I don't think surround sound will go away this time. In particular DVD-A can be played òn a standard DVD player and the discs typically carry a Dobly 5.1 track akin to the Cinema standard at a price which is not significantly higher than CD particularly in the states.

If nothing else even "home cinema in a box" will allow it to survive. I know this is NOT an audiophile situation but it's out there and gaining momentum. People are walking into Tesco's and buying DVD players for 100 quid for chrissake! Quite a chunk of them will end up sticking a DVD-A disc in their player eventually just for fun.

I remenber 2 transitions which were a radical change.
1) Shellac to Tape
2) Tape to CD
Initially the appropriate format software did not have a decent catalogue, and both formats required investment in new equipment to play them. I know we could single out the differences compared with the current debate but we have a different attitude towards electronics and media now simply because we have to
People are using PC's to process high quality digital signals and feed video off DVD to displays.

regards
GEOFFP

Comparisons between CD & SACD/DVDA should really be made with similarly priced units, I think. Naim et al make their money by expensively tinkering with the weaknesses of the CD format, and while there are doubtless areas of the new systems which can be similarly exploited [bass in SACD for example], there have been a few postings here saying that a cheap Sony SACD can give Naim CDP's a good run for their money - presumably just because there's less compensatory fiddling to be done. When [if] there's enough momentum for more high end stuff, it will be interesting to see if there are major benefits.

I agree with Geoff that it's the 3D thing that might be the killer app., together with really cheap universal players. That is unless music goes the way of the 'CD is about dead' thread, and having noticed cheapo hard disk mini systems from JVC & Sony springing up in Curry's recently, I can quite see that happening.

throb