The authoritarian principle
Posted by: graphoman on 21 October 2009
This time I do definitely not mention the exact phenomenon since, again, I want to stick to theory. (Recent time I did not succeed in it.)
In a discussion Mike-B wanted to prove he is right because he has been an engineer and university lecturer. In my topic “Basic Hi-Fi” I tried to show the irrelevance of this view.
Now Mike gave us one more evidence why he felt he was authentic to judge in matters audio:
“I may have just retired but can still hear 16kHz and the run out track on Pepper, I have always been a practising musician, less these days, but in the past I was able to differentiate the make of most instruments, age strings, sing an A in the absence of an oboe etc... That's just some of the non-science reasons why I think this issue is (maybe) 99% psychosomatic.”
I have never been a musician, let alone blessed with “absolute hearing”. However, my brother (Ferenc Darvas) is one of the best and most accepted theatre musicist, componist and pianist in Hungary, active almost in every field, once a film music of his was nominated in Paris (he did not win), and as for “serious music”, in his younger years he had even been lecturer on the Franz Liszt Music Academy. (Soon he recovered from this disease.) Got “absolute hearing” from an age of 10, of course.
You can imagine, such a golden ear would have come handy for me, once-editor of a hifi mag, allways in need of some jury to be trusted. Unfortunately, my brother - as we tried X time - had not the least talent to judge on audio phenomema. He was not even able to distinguish between, say, a Naim and a Hong-Kong cheapy. The “inner hearing ablility” prevented him to concentrate on real audio, just to the texture of music.
Since the editorial office was identic with my humble home, lots of the best hungarian music critics were permanently visited me and many a time a tried their abilities in our hobby. To make a long story short, it was the Impossibility itself.
That time, the most “exportable” musicians of Hungary was the Franz Liszt Chamber Orchestra I has been (and still am) in friendly term with. In a “séance”, concertmaster J.R. and the leader of the second solo K.K. visited me and they tried to tell apart a naim 250 (chrome, of course) from a cheapy model, in blind test. They voted on the latter.
Food for thought.
graphoman
PS. If you want to blame me that referring to my once-carreer I suffer in the same disease of authoritanism I should refuse it. The position/job of editors is definitely not coupled to abilities others than journalism. I never had golden ears. My job had never called for more than realising, collecting and publishing news, views, tendences.
In a discussion Mike-B wanted to prove he is right because he has been an engineer and university lecturer. In my topic “Basic Hi-Fi” I tried to show the irrelevance of this view.
Now Mike gave us one more evidence why he felt he was authentic to judge in matters audio:
“I may have just retired but can still hear 16kHz and the run out track on Pepper, I have always been a practising musician, less these days, but in the past I was able to differentiate the make of most instruments, age strings, sing an A in the absence of an oboe etc... That's just some of the non-science reasons why I think this issue is (maybe) 99% psychosomatic.”
I have never been a musician, let alone blessed with “absolute hearing”. However, my brother (Ferenc Darvas) is one of the best and most accepted theatre musicist, componist and pianist in Hungary, active almost in every field, once a film music of his was nominated in Paris (he did not win), and as for “serious music”, in his younger years he had even been lecturer on the Franz Liszt Music Academy. (Soon he recovered from this disease.) Got “absolute hearing” from an age of 10, of course.
You can imagine, such a golden ear would have come handy for me, once-editor of a hifi mag, allways in need of some jury to be trusted. Unfortunately, my brother - as we tried X time - had not the least talent to judge on audio phenomema. He was not even able to distinguish between, say, a Naim and a Hong-Kong cheapy. The “inner hearing ablility” prevented him to concentrate on real audio, just to the texture of music.
Since the editorial office was identic with my humble home, lots of the best hungarian music critics were permanently visited me and many a time a tried their abilities in our hobby. To make a long story short, it was the Impossibility itself.
That time, the most “exportable” musicians of Hungary was the Franz Liszt Chamber Orchestra I has been (and still am) in friendly term with. In a “séance”, concertmaster J.R. and the leader of the second solo K.K. visited me and they tried to tell apart a naim 250 (chrome, of course) from a cheapy model, in blind test. They voted on the latter.
Food for thought.
graphoman
PS. If you want to blame me that referring to my once-carreer I suffer in the same disease of authoritanism I should refuse it. The position/job of editors is definitely not coupled to abilities others than journalism. I never had golden ears. My job had never called for more than realising, collecting and publishing news, views, tendences.
JonR, thanks for your comments.
I do not know how this kicked off and am at a total loss to understand what is winding his spring up. I for one will be ignoring in future and will refuse to engage until the hostility subsides. It is – lets us say – not in the spirit of this forum which is I believe is intended to be a friendly exchange of news, information, ideas and advise between enthusiasts with a common interest. It is to be expected that people disagree and push their own opinions in adult level discussion, this is what these forums are all about (aren’t they?)
It all originated (I think) when I put my opinion in on the subject of cable directivity.
As I, and all engineers, the proposition is based on what we (individually) know on the subject and contains known facts and theory that have credence. I tried to tease out some real information and not subjective beliefs (albeit genuinely & some strongly held beliefs). I put forward some ideas on what I believe might be a possible cause for those who hear a difference.
I am still waiting for any information other than unsubstantiated writings and/or for someone to volunteer to take part in or show me the results of a substantiated repeatability test. If I can get such material that flies in the face of all I believe to be, then I will genuinely pursue and try somehow to investigate. I used to have a few million quids worth of R&D machinery to do such work, but you never know, some interesting projects have come out of back yard sheds & garages.
And thanks for upgrading me to a scientist; I am a humble engineer.
Engineers prove scientist to be wrong.
I do not know how this kicked off and am at a total loss to understand what is winding his spring up. I for one will be ignoring in future and will refuse to engage until the hostility subsides. It is – lets us say – not in the spirit of this forum which is I believe is intended to be a friendly exchange of news, information, ideas and advise between enthusiasts with a common interest. It is to be expected that people disagree and push their own opinions in adult level discussion, this is what these forums are all about (aren’t they?)
It all originated (I think) when I put my opinion in on the subject of cable directivity.
As I, and all engineers, the proposition is based on what we (individually) know on the subject and contains known facts and theory that have credence. I tried to tease out some real information and not subjective beliefs (albeit genuinely & some strongly held beliefs). I put forward some ideas on what I believe might be a possible cause for those who hear a difference.
I am still waiting for any information other than unsubstantiated writings and/or for someone to volunteer to take part in or show me the results of a substantiated repeatability test. If I can get such material that flies in the face of all I believe to be, then I will genuinely pursue and try somehow to investigate. I used to have a few million quids worth of R&D machinery to do such work, but you never know, some interesting projects have come out of back yard sheds & garages.
And thanks for upgrading me to a scientist; I am a humble engineer.
Engineers prove scientist to be wrong.
Heifetz called high fidelity and stereo "high phooey and hystereo". 
quote:if MikeB is a practicing musician with good skills
I wish ....
A long time ago maybe, but these days a blow with friends in pubs doesn't count.Rockindoc is right, musicians can delude themselves from their bubble, But I have to defend formal (classical) training as the skill of listening to all around you and balancing sound as would a conductor with various size ensembles was all part of the grading structure. e.g. Air on the G String - in pianissimo - played as an orchestra or large ensemble can only give "that" magic if everyone has all ears open.
quote:Originally posted by Mike-B:
I wish ....
It's like riding a bicycle :-)
Well, not quite. But you don't lose everything when you retire from playing.