Burn-in process
Posted by: desert rat on 15 February 2004
Some of this may have been answered elesewhere but I couldn't find it.
1. When the manual talks of 5 weeks burn-in process, is that 5 weeks of 24-7 continual playing or 5 weeks with just a few hours a day playing.
2. Why is Naim equipment more affected by the burn-in process than other brands in terms of the variability of the performance in this burn-in period.
3. Can anybody explain scientifically why this variability in system performance takes place?
Thanks in advance for any replies!
Karl
1. When the manual talks of 5 weeks burn-in process, is that 5 weeks of 24-7 continual playing or 5 weeks with just a few hours a day playing.
2. Why is Naim equipment more affected by the burn-in process than other brands in terms of the variability of the performance in this burn-in period.
3. Can anybody explain scientifically why this variability in system performance takes place?
Thanks in advance for any replies!
Karl
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by garyi
1. ignore it, its warmed up after 3 hours.
2. Its not.
3. There is no scientific mumbo jumbo, it helps to perpetuate the 5 week burn in myth, to allow the listener time to become accustomed to their kit and fall in love with it, anyone claiming to hear differences that occured months before are deluding themselves.
2. Its not.
3. There is no scientific mumbo jumbo, it helps to perpetuate the 5 week burn in myth, to allow the listener time to become accustomed to their kit and fall in love with it, anyone claiming to hear differences that occured months before are deluding themselves.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by kuma
quote:
Originally posted by desert rat:
2. Why is Naim equipment more affected by the burn-in process than other brands in terms of the variability of the performance in this burn-in period.
I've found that Naim gear ( I have no dealing with their speakers ) break in time is no different from others. But they sound drastically better when they are run in at least for few days if they were turned off.
I did not go through weird gyrations. Things would improve overtime but nothing that drastic and basic characteristics remain the same.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by J.N.
Hi Karl
The kit just needs to be left switched on, and play it as and when you want.
Personally; I've never bothered with physically running new CD players overnight on 'repeat' etc: It's the electronics that need to warm up and stabilise.
Any good quality Hi-Fi kit responds to being left switched on. Why; has never been satisfactorily explained, to me.
Others here with a technical bent, may be able to offer explanations?
Bear in mind that the quality of the mains supply will affect the sound quality, as will 'cold' speakers. Most systems (even if left powered-up) sound better after playing music for 15 - 30 minutes.
I had a bit of a shock yesterday, going back to my SBL's having run some alternative speakers for about a month.
The SBL's had been left in situ in my centrally heated house and sounded bloody awful for about 2 hours! They just needed warming up.
But............. I reckon the biggest effect on sound quality comes from one's mental state. I've learned that if it sounds crap; it's probably because I'm knackered or unsettled about something.
When this happens; give up and iron the cat or something.
Good luck.
[This message was edited by J.N. on SUNDAY 15 February 2004 at 10:26.]
The kit just needs to be left switched on, and play it as and when you want.
Personally; I've never bothered with physically running new CD players overnight on 'repeat' etc: It's the electronics that need to warm up and stabilise.
Any good quality Hi-Fi kit responds to being left switched on. Why; has never been satisfactorily explained, to me.
Others here with a technical bent, may be able to offer explanations?
Bear in mind that the quality of the mains supply will affect the sound quality, as will 'cold' speakers. Most systems (even if left powered-up) sound better after playing music for 15 - 30 minutes.
I had a bit of a shock yesterday, going back to my SBL's having run some alternative speakers for about a month.
The SBL's had been left in situ in my centrally heated house and sounded bloody awful for about 2 hours! They just needed warming up.
But............. I reckon the biggest effect on sound quality comes from one's mental state. I've learned that if it sounds crap; it's probably because I'm knackered or unsettled about something.
When this happens; give up and iron the cat or something.
Good luck.
[This message was edited by J.N. on SUNDAY 15 February 2004 at 10:26.]
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by Nime
1) Not true IMHO Garyi. It did & does improve (in my system & in my room) over longer timespans (of at least a week or so).
2) Don't know.
3) It can't just be just the speakers warming up. They get played every day & night for hours on end. Sometimes at 'naughty' levels. Nothing changed (improved) when the system was switched off at the end of every listening session. Despite the constant daily use (and abuse). Only leaving it switched on between listening sessions improved the sound quality.
My non-Naim CD player sounded worse after lengthy continuous connection to the mains. I prefer it to be switched off at night. Others might suggest it should never be switched on. But it gives us both great (musical) pleasure.
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
2) Don't know.
3) It can't just be just the speakers warming up. They get played every day & night for hours on end. Sometimes at 'naughty' levels. Nothing changed (improved) when the system was switched off at the end of every listening session. Despite the constant daily use (and abuse). Only leaving it switched on between listening sessions improved the sound quality.
My non-Naim CD player sounded worse after lengthy continuous connection to the mains. I prefer it to be switched off at night. Others might suggest it should never be switched on. But it gives us both great (musical) pleasure.
Nime
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by HTK
My CD5 took a good 5 weeks, a refurb HiCap took around 4. It's not necessary to have music playing all the time, just for the gear to be left on.
Everything I've ever bougt has taken time to settle down. But whereas most of my gear started off good (but in one particular case terrible) and got better, the Naim stuff sounds significantly different over the burn in, swinging from amazing to bloody awful until it settles. I have no idea why.
Cheers
Harry
Everything I've ever bougt has taken time to settle down. But whereas most of my gear started off good (but in one particular case terrible) and got better, the Naim stuff sounds significantly different over the burn in, swinging from amazing to bloody awful until it settles. I have no idea why.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by J.N.
quote:
ignore it, its warmed up after 3 hours.
I think Garyi's having us on.
I've said before that I find Naim kit (amps in particular) to be bloody good from cold, if a little ragged.
Over the next two or three days, the bottom end fills out but is fat,bloaty and shut-in.
After three to five days, the soundstage opens up and some control and leanness comes back to the bottom end.
I reckon that my regularly used CDS2, still needed the best part of a fortnight to deliver its full potential after being powered down.
This phenomena makes home dems over a weekend somewhat unreliable.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by HTK
quote:
Originally posted by J.N.:
After three to five days, the soundstage opens up
Shome mistake shurely? Soundstage? Take it back, it's broken.
Cheers
H
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by smike42
Ears play a part too.
My system sounds terrible at the moment but I've got sinusitus or something so everything does! At least when that's clared up my system will have had 7-8 weeks of burn in so should be past the worst and sounding great - but I've missed nearly 2 weeks of the progress with the ear problems. Certainly week 4 was better than week 1 in post parts but I found the top end very difficult to listen to with the wick turned up at week 4.
Oh well!
As for science that's beyond most of us.
regards
Smike
My system sounds terrible at the moment but I've got sinusitus or something so everything does! At least when that's clared up my system will have had 7-8 weeks of burn in so should be past the worst and sounding great - but I've missed nearly 2 weeks of the progress with the ear problems. Certainly week 4 was better than week 1 in post parts but I found the top end very difficult to listen to with the wick turned up at week 4.
Oh well!
As for science that's beyond most of us.
regards
Smike
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by Mr_Sukebe
My CD5i took approx 6 weeks to sound something like. Out of the box it was veiled, followed by rather coarse and nasal, now sounds pretty wonderful.
My Nait 5 went through roughly the same process from new.
Furthermore, I've bought some second hand and ex-dem equipment more recently, which sure enough sounded great straight out of the bag, including Garyis old Hicap.
So I certainly don't believe it's all mumbo jumbo.
My Nait 5 went through roughly the same process from new.
Furthermore, I've bought some second hand and ex-dem equipment more recently, which sure enough sounded great straight out of the bag, including Garyis old Hicap.
So I certainly don't believe it's all mumbo jumbo.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by J.N.
HTK
I know what you mean. I got carried away!
I've had a look at your forum profile. What amp did you get?
Any other changes?
quote:
Shome mistake shurely? Soundstage? Take it back, it's broken.
I know what you mean. I got carried away!
I've had a look at your forum profile. What amp did you get?
Any other changes?
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by Jonathan Hales
quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
3. There is no scientific mumbo jumbo, it helps to perpetuate the 5 week burn in myth, to allow the listener time to become accustomed to their kit and fall in love with it, anyone claiming to hear differences that occured months before are deluding themselves.
Gary, unless I am tone deaf or very fickle, but my new CDS3 and 250/2 have only just plateaued in their performance the last week or so (CDS3 arrived in October, 250 late December)
I experienced weeks of highly changeable performance which improved in bursts, then went backwards slightly before another improvement became noticeable usually a few days apart. I know this for a fact because I used the same few track as a benchmark.
I have had my mains done so dont believe it was down to a moody power supply either.
I havent been hearing things. I have always found Naim gear takes along time to settle and have been better for the experience.
My system is sounding exceptional now and is more consistent, settled and brilliant.
If there is anymore to come I am happy to have it but if thats all then Im ecstatic.
I dont get the technical explanation for this process but I dont doubt for a second it is genuine.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by Minky
Jonathan,
BIG DOGS COCK.
BIG DOGS COCK.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by Jonathan Hales
Dear Minky and James,
Leave me alone or I will cry.
Frikken bullies.
Leave me alone or I will cry.
Frikken bullies.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by Manu
Well, it's difficult to know what happens in an electronic device in the long run. Probably nobody took the time to mesure for days. What i have experienced is during the few hours following powering up. It is very easy to mesure changes in an amplifier circuit during the first hours: all bias voltages change. It is also quite easy to see the distortion and noise level change. In my own experience, Naim amps are in the group of the fast to stabilize.
An electronic component is sensible to its environment and modifies its environment.
Take a transistor, for example, its current gain varies with temperature; when a current flows though it, its temperature rises (due to its resistance), so the gain changes, so the current changes... It is quite easy to understand this particular transistor needs time to find its balance between temperature and gain and this time is longer for new parts. It's the same thing for any components and any physics variables. And for a hole unit, having hundreds of components interacting with each others, it can take hours.
There is a scientific reason for the changes your can hear, that's not voodoo.
Emmanuel
Euphonie
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
[This message was edited by Manu on MONDAY 16 February 2004 at 05:14.]
An electronic component is sensible to its environment and modifies its environment.
Take a transistor, for example, its current gain varies with temperature; when a current flows though it, its temperature rises (due to its resistance), so the gain changes, so the current changes... It is quite easy to understand this particular transistor needs time to find its balance between temperature and gain and this time is longer for new parts. It's the same thing for any components and any physics variables. And for a hole unit, having hundreds of components interacting with each others, it can take hours.
There is a scientific reason for the changes your can hear, that's not voodoo.
Emmanuel
Euphonie
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
[This message was edited by Manu on MONDAY 16 February 2004 at 05:14.]
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by desert rat
Thanks to everyone for their replies.
Manu, that's an interesting post. I think many of us will appreciate that technical description of what's going on. That also explains then why the sound is different at different room temperatures. The system sounds better when the room is cold!
Karl
Manu, that's an interesting post. I think many of us will appreciate that technical description of what's going on. That also explains then why the sound is different at different room temperatures. The system sounds better when the room is cold!
Karl
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by HTK
quote:
Originally posted by J.N.:
What amp did you get?
Any other changes?
Ah! Well spotted. I've just updated my profile. Well, basically I did a bad bad thing. While looking for somewhere to flog the amp I stumbled across Boarder Patrol and foolishly drove up there and had a chat with the man. Edned up getting the 500 gutted, refurbished and revalved. Then splashed out on an external power supply. Oh the shame of it. I'm suprised I haven't been slung out of here - maybe I will now.
Sorry to go OT, but you did ask.
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Laurie Saunders
In my experience, I can detect "burn in " changes for up to 12 weeks
Laurie S
Laurie S