Which arm/cartridge?

Posted by: Big Ears on 22 November 2001

Hi all just wondered if anyone else owned a michelle oebe SE turntable and wondered what arms / cartridges worked best with my Naim amps ( 72-hicap-135`s). I am currently using origin live rb250 - (rb 300 for sale) and a sumiko blue point special cartridge.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Thanx

Gary

Posted on: 22 November 2001 by JosephR
quote:
Originally posted by Big Ears:
Hi all just wondered if anyone else owned a michelle oebe SE turntable and wondered what arms / cartridges worked best with my Naim amps ( 72-hicap-135`s). I am currently using origin live rb250 - (rb 300 for sale) and a sumiko blue point special cartridge.

Any advice greatly appreciated.
Thanx
Gary


Go the "boring" path :-), get an SME IV or V. Then change that cart to a Dyna 10X4, and use the 72's "K" board, rather than the MM board (unless you move on to the newer preamps, then you have to use an MM board) - Super ...

Used a stock and OL/Incognito-rewired RB-300 once, the SME will make you curse all those reviews on the Rega arms, you are missing a lot with them ...

I'm now inquiring from the guys who used an ARO on a Michell at http://www.phonologic.com/ ...

[This message was edited by JosephR on THURSDAY 22 November 2001 at 17:26.]

Posted on: 22 November 2001 by Frank Abela
As said earlier the SME IV and V work well. On a gyro, I find the V to be 'too much' and it kills the vitaility of th edeck, but I haven't tried it on an Orbe (though I have heard John Michell's with a V and that was great).

I have also heard a Gyro with a Wilson benesch ACT0.5 and that was very good indeed - fluid and swinging as you'd expect from a unipivot.

I have not heard the Moerch arms - Shahreza how are you getting on with yours and which model is it?

Personally, I use a Mission Mechanic rewired with the Cardas Incognito RB300 rewire by Moth on my Gyrodec. It's fabulous (the arm as well as the rewire) so a Mission Mechanic would do very well if you went the 2nd hand route.

I fully endorse the coments about shackling the record deck with an RBxxx arm. Although it's excellent value for money it doesn't let the deck breathe properly. I fancy you'll be surprised when you try a super arm.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 22 November 2001 by Frank Abela
I disagree with JosephR's suggestion of using MC boards with a 10x4 as the DV is a high output cartridge. Stick with MM boards for high output moving coils. You'll have to go with MC boards or an external phono stage if you want a low output MC cartridge.

There are quite a few good cartridges around. If you go for a super arm, your Sumiko will immediately work better, giving you more resolution and better frequency extremes.

However, if you wish to change, Dynavector and Ortofon both have strong ranges from £200 up. If you like a fast bright presentation like the Sumiko's then the Ortofons will be your bag. Their weakness is tonality which isn't so hot by comparison to their prowess in PR&T. At the lower end of the scale the peach is the MC25FL (£250ish). The new Kontrapunkt A (£500) and Kontrapunkt B (£750) are fabulous in the right deck (I have not tried them in a Michell but they are great in a Linn LP12 with ARO).

If you've found the Sumiko to be unrelenting and a bit mechanical, then the Dynavectors may be for you, since they major on tonality, drama and scale, but don't time as well as the Ortofons. I use Dynavectors at home since they seem better balanced to me. However, I know people who couldn't live with them, so there you go! There's quite a range of Dynavectors. The only one I don't really get along with that much is the 20 (XL or XH). There's a limited edition 10x Gold which is available both High and Low output which at £225 is a real peach. All the others such as 17D2 (£450 and the best treble below £1000), XX2 (£1000) and Te Kaitora (£1695, my choice) are excellent value performers in my view. There is a top of the range XV-1 (£2500) which is a monster in terms of size and weight so try before you buy and ensure the arm can cope with the physical requirements. Most arms can cope with the other cartridges I've mentioned herein.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 22 November 2001 by JosephR
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Abela:
I disagree with JosephR's suggestion of using MC boards with a 10x4 as the DV is a high output cartridge. Stick with MM boards for high output moving coils. You'll have to go with MC boards or an external phono stage if you want a low output MC cartridge.

Yes, I know that, but on my 72, the "K" board is different from my 52's "K" board (they do have different model nos. in the catalog). In fact, it was my Naim dealer who asked me to use the "K" board on the 72. I also borrowed all the other board types to try out just in case, and the "K" remained the best-sounding one.

On the 52 using its "K" board, the 2.5 mv Dynavector 10X4 was definitely terribly high. Even the 0.5 mv Lyra Helikon was way high.

Anyway, maybe my 72 had some problems, even if my dealer recommended the "K" ? Nobody in this forum seems to have tried the "K" on the 72 for high-output carts ... everyone recommends the MM boards, which is logically correct and the safe recommendation ... so try to borrow both from your dealer if you can, and we'll be interested to know your findings ... that is, if you go for the Dynavector, of course ...

Posted on: 22 November 2001 by Frank Abela
The MM board on the 72 is a 322. The K and S are 323K and 323 S. As you say, the input voltages are around 2.5mV and 0.3 mV for High/low outputs. But if you were using a KontrapunktB you'd be in trouble with K's since it outputs something like 4mV! I have tried K's and S's with MM cartridges. They always sound wrong to me, both with 72 and later preamps.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 22 November 2001 by JosephR
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Abela:
But if you were using a KontrapunktB you'd be in trouble with K's since it outputs something like 4mV! I have tried K's and S's with MM cartridges. They always sound wrong to me, both with 72 and later preamps.

Regards,
Frank.

Hi, Frank, yes, for sure, 4mv will be high. But MM carts which you've tried are usually very high compared to 2.5 mv, usually 4mv upwards, am I right (unelss they were the low-output Grados) ? They will really sound wrong ... I tried the 0.5 mv Helikon on my 52/K and it was so wrong, only right from 9 o'clock and below ... above that, overbearing ... With a 0.4mv OC9ML on the 52/K, I could play up to 4 o'clock but have to back out when the 135s start to clip ...

I'm referring more to the 2.5mv 10X4 on the K/72, which I could play as loud as 10:30 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Still nobody has tried it ... Rob Doorack of Listener magazine reviewed the 10X4 using a Stageline, I think, which is a new product and won't be the same as the 72's boards ...

Anyway, you're right that an M board is the right board, logically speaking. but I am proposing an alternative, which I found to sound better, and only for the 72/K/10X4 combibation. He can try to borrow the cards, but if he can't, then MM is the safe bet ...

It's great that you brought this up, though. It clarifies the initial suggestions I made which may have been construed as a general one ...

Gotta sign off now ...

[This message was edited by JosephR on THURSDAY 22 November 2001 at 19:04.]

Posted on: 22 November 2001 by Chris L
I used the K boards with my Sumiko BPS in my 32.5, because the 322 MM boards were rather lacking in gain with this cartridge. The BPS is also rated at 2.5mV, although I'll believe that when I see it - I'd be surprised if it was half that.

Anyway, found it odd with the K boards, sounded okay, but stereo image was odd. I know we flat-earth inhabitants shouldn't care, but I find it very disconcerting when the singing voices seem to be coming from the below the floor between the speakers!

I assumed that this was due to the impedance mismatch, but I don't really know. So I went back to the MM boards which I figure out what to do next.

In short: your mileage may vary!

Chris L

Posted on: 22 November 2001 by Stephen Rodrigues
My dad has a Graham 2.2 on his Orbe, with Transfiguration Temper Supreme or alternately a Koetsu Urushi. One of the nice things about the Graham arm is the ease at which cartridges can be changed (though not as easily as my Aro though!) Both carts suit the deck very well and sound fantastic - the Transfig is very punchy and lively, the Koetsu is equally dynamic, but more lush sounding at the same time.
Posted on: 22 November 2001 by Big Ears
Thank you all for the great advice on the arm/catridge combo but i forgot to mention that i am using a Michell Delphini +PSU.

Cheers