itunes Hardrive vs Cd?

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
J.N.
What other sub 1k DAC have you tried with your mac?

Why - does he need to? Some people might like to stop when they find something that works for them. He stated that he picked his solution over his previously owned CDX2 so obviously that was good enough for him - no need to listen to multiple ones if it worked and gave him what he wanted. It does not make his decision any less valid.

In this day and age (especially here in the States) it is becoming increasingly difficult to demo anything. My dealer (and yours) is one of the top LP12 dealers in the country yet when I wanted to demo high end cartridges it was an impossibility - Akiva or bust. As such I maintain there is the same problem demoing DAC's - or speakers or anything else for that matter. Frustrating but thats the way it is.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
In this day and age (especially here in the States) it is becoming increasingly difficult to demo anything. My dealer (and yours) is one of the top LP12 dealers in the country yet when I wanted to demo high end cartridges it was an impossibility - Akiva or bust. As such I maintain there is the same problem demoing DAC's - or speakers or anything else for that matter. Frustrating but thats the way it is.

Very true indeed - I look back with some nostalgia to the time in the 1980s when I was living in the UK (London), with any number of well stocked dealers within easy traveling distance, all of whom were willing to offer comparisons of alternative pieces of equipment and offer useful advice.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
Why - does he need to?

Of course, noone needs to.
I didn't say that, did I ?
I was curious is all.

quote:

In this day and age (especially here in the States) it is becoming increasingly difficult to demo anything. My dealer (and yours) is one of the top LP12 dealers in the country yet when I wanted to demo high end cartridges it was an impossibility - Akiva or bust. As such I maintain there is the same problem demoing DAC's - or speakers or anything else for that matter. Frustrating but thats the way it is.

Unlike analogue kit or full range speakers, auditioning various DAC was relatively easy as many 1k DACs available from online retailers with a return policy. For me, knowing some folks with excess gear help but some I bought them ought right from the store or contact the manufacturer/distributor directly and ask for a demo in case there is no local dealer.

It's not that difficult to demo DACs to see what's out there. ( it's just one's time and how motivated you are )

I don't mind listening to different stuff in a wide variety of price range. It's educational and helps me make the right decision. Or find out what others are on about.

Being one of those souls who latterly bought a Lavry and also owns a 500 system, I'm happy with my 555, which sounds superb. However, if I'd been running a Mac/Lavry and then auditioned a 555, I would have been seriously considering whether the huge additional outlay was justified, even allowing for the fact I was in the position to be able to afford it.

PC,

I don't have to keep anyone's budget in mind when I post my responses. When other members ask about upgrades for their system how often do you see members suggesting upgrades which add $10-20K USD to the cost, even when someone simply asks about adding a FC2x or HC2 to their system and the next thing you hear is "buy a 282/SC/250." Give me a break.

I simply gave you an explanation of how I came to my conclusions of what to buy for myself. I also never said that you had to spend significant money to be satisfied, I merely stated my opinion of what I thought sounded best. Those opinions would not change even if I had decided against purchasing an HDX or anything else.

As far as the SN DAC is concerned I have always said it was a "bonus" and not the raison d'etre for this kit. I happen to think it(SN)sounds great.

If I had to spend less than $1K and buy 1 box, the choice would be easy "FOR ME"-->Sonos (played into the SN/DAC or directly into a Naim pre-amp). I think the music sounds good and the user interface along with the ability to have variety with internet radio, last.fm, rhapsody/napster, etc... all in one location and system makes for a compelling product. If I was looking for improved plaback of my ripped CDs only then I'd add a TC K8 ($300)to the system and use it the way it's set-up by JS. This is what I would have done if the HDX had not come out when it did and fit my profile while I was waiting for an alternative solution. To get better performance and reach close to $1K then there are some PSUs which JS has experimented with and added to the K8 which improved performance. I'm fortunate as this type of combo requires some tweaking on settings etc.. which JS could do or walk me through.

So here is my best way to spend $1K in a stepwise fashion given the current market and from what I've heard and what sounds good to me.

It seems that one of the likely choices which has been suggested to my neighbour is the AVI 9.1 system. Two active speakers including amp and dac. It does sound very promising.

It even allows him to rip albums from his LP12.

I think for me, I'll always want the element of collecting and being involved in the replay of music (putting on an LP or CD...holding it in my hands, etc). But if I could use my iTunes library as background music (albeit at high quality) then it does sound interesting.

Every time people on this forum try to discuss this subject the same people dive in with their opinion's, which, lets face it we all know as they cant help but put them forward.

why should people have tried different bits of kit? If you like it, great! For most of us on this forum we clearly don't have the 'contacts' of others who seem to hear every bit of kit ever made or released.

Lets face it there are a lot of people on this forum who will buy a Naim product simply because its a Naim product. They like the sound and to an extent know what they are going to get, even though there are plenty of alternative options available, some would argue at a much cheaper price.

This whole 'digital audio' is very interesting and I was pleased to see Naim release such products as the SN & HDX. As some will know i have listened to both for a serious length of time, with regard to the SN I had cash in my pocket to buy one, alas, I was extremely disappointed with its performance.

To my ears it is dull and not the Naim presentation that I like, indeed it was felt by myself and the dealer that the current 5 amp offered a much more engaging sound and is nearer to the Naim sound. As for the DAC in the SN, well its no surprise that the L***y is proving so popular, its very poor. This can be said for the HDX which is a shame. On so many levels the HDX offers superb simplicity and a one stop shop for those who just want to 'plug and play' with great network options to boot. Alas, its performance just doesn't warrant the price tag.

As for the 'you should hear it with a 555ps' well a ten grand source better sound good! But if you have to add a 555ps then to me its saying something is wrong. I have only heard a 'bare' HDX and a best it was CDX2 level. When compared to the L***y playing the same tracks into the same setup there was no obvious difference, when there was it was the L***y that was the preferred source by myself and the dealer doing the demo. To be fair the other guy who works there he prefers the HDX, but for its overall package rather than the its ability to reproduce music, even he admits the L***y is extremely good and cant separate them from on a purely musical performance.

I look forward to hearing the Naim DAC and improved versions of both the SN & HDX, both the latter really need to be improved significantly. But im sure Naim will take on board what the forum has been discussing and considered improvements based upon comments being made, both positive and negative.

FOR ME, it has opened my ears to alternative sources and manufacturers but I will not be changing my Naim amps as I believe they are unmatched, although I wouldn't mind a 552, that's one Naim product they got right straight out of the box and we ALL agree on that, don't we?!!!

My current source is a Mac/L***y.

Thanks Gary...

Now that is what I am talking about...

Seriously, sincerely, thanks for your thoughts.

I know you dont need to consider budgets. we ALL know an HDX is going to sound great. Not all of us can afford one, but still want to get away from CDs.

To be told that there is NO worthwhile option short of the HDX is defeating.

A mfg/owner of highend DACs spent a fair amount of time on the phone with me one afternoon. He intimated that unless one is ready to spend at least $3000, the pursuit is a dead end street. I refuse to believe that.

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

A mfg/owner of highend DACs spent a fair amount of time on the phone with me one afternoon. He intimated that unless one is ready to spend at least $3000, the pursuit is a dead end street. I refuse to believe that.

PC, everyone has there own individual needs and ears so things are bound to be different from one person to another. What has surprised me is the HUGE variation in opinions from myself and others and I don't know why this is so. There hasn't appeared to be this wide variation with "standard" Naim gear CDPs/PSUs/upgrades/amps. There are exceptions, but most opinions apppear well within an expected range.

For your final point, I am not one who believes that more expensive necessarily means better. However, my experience through many different industries is that there is usually a cost/performance ratio which holds true to a reasonable extent, with the best ratio of cost/VFM being somewhere in the middle and not at the extremes.

I would take up JS' offer of the modded chinese dac and K8/psu for a demo. It was fun as was the Cambridge DAC using the full set-up as well. The modded was better IMO. Each was better than more expensive options that I heard.

quote:

Originally posted by gary1 (US):
What has surprised me is the HUGE variation in opinions from myself and others and I don't know why this is so. There hasn't appeared to be this wide variation with "standard" Naim gear CDPs/PSUs/upgrades/amps.

Gary, this is exactly why people take exception to your fairly aggressive dislike of the Lavry.

No one else can understand the "HUGE variation" either. Hence all of the initial questions pertaining to leads and set-up etc.... In your original "review".

The Lavry is simply not your cup o tea it seems.

But I always say "Eat shit, a million flies cant be wrong", so the Lavry is still at the top of the heap for me until Naim unlocks their lips.

quote:

Originally posted by Mat Cork:
It seems that one of the likely choices which has been suggested to my neighbour is the AVI 9.1 system. Two active speakers including amp and dac. It does sound very promising.

I have heard this demo'd by AVI - it sounded dreadful, but I did get a lecture from the designer on the meaning of life. They also explained why DAB was superior to FM. Sorry, but I was not alone in my views - I don't think anybody who heard it was impressed - avoid like plague IMHO.

A CD5i or Rega Apollo is very very very very very very much better than the dreary AVI stuff. In fact the standard iPod with one of B&W Zeppelin things sounds better and I wasn't overly impressed with that.

If you do buy it then get a warranty and check the small print well and truly.

I know my views will seem a bit one sided because despite encouragement from many satisfied users, I'm not a fan of computer audio. I much prefer the convenience and sound from physical media. However, even putting all my prejudices aside I can't see/hear how anybody would enjoy that AVI system - please audition it, as I'd be interested to know if you agreed.

AVI are just up the road from me - so I'd love it if they made great kit and gave great service, but .....

ATB Rotf

Thank you ROTF...by the way this is not a 'mate of mine has a problem' thread, he really is my neighbour.

I have to admit, I am a bit sceptical of the AVI, as I am of any product which professes to be better (without question) of products costing 10 times the price. In my experience, this is usually a very bad sign.

I've advised him to listen and make up his own mind based on his ears.

For me, part of this 'hobby' is having things to collect, LP's, 12"s, box sets, CD with digibooks - electronic music has none of that, and in my little world will therefore always be lacking a key part of the whole experience.

quote:

I know my views will seem a bit one sided because despite encouragement from many satisfied users, I'm not a fan of computer audio. I much prefer the convenience and sound from physical media.

So you continually comment. Why do you persist in telling everyone you don't like distributed audio? I hear you loud and clear.

Hi Matt

I know the sound quality is number one, but I'd also advise you neighbour to check out the support - with kit from Naim, Rega and Linn I have enjoyed superb service. From Croft, PMC, TDL, Pioneer, Pure, Panasonic and TEAC, I have received very acceptable service, but I'm not sure that would be the case with .....

So I advise reading around a bit to be sure that even if it hit the right note at audition that the service was good ...

BTW most of their older products are now obsolete rubbish - not my opinion, but theirs .... strange company.

ATB Rotf

PC, it seems I really can't please everyone and thats just too bad. The fact of the matter, and I'm really tiring of this, is that I never said the Lavry was bad. What I said was it didn't live up to my expectations based upon the write-ups that I read here on the forum. That's why I tried it and yes you are correct it wasn't my cup of tea. If people interpret this as "aggressive dislike" then that's their problem not mine. There are many other people who post on the forum and others who do not who have gone through the same demonstrations that I have and have come to the same conclusions I have.

I am not anti-Lavry nor anti-DAC, it's just for the quality of music replay that I'm interested in none of the DACs added up. As I said before I have my options I'd go with if the HDX was not available. I even preferred the Cambridge DM to the Lavry. So what.

The fact that other members rave about the Lavry and there are huge variations in opinion is not my problem, nor does it mean that they are correct.

People can question the set-up they saw on Rega1's pictures from that day all they want it had no effect on the final outcome whatsoever. If the Lavry is still your number one choice until a Naim DAC comes out great. IMO you'd be missing something not to take up JS' offer as I said before since I think you would enjoy the combo and it's better than the DA-10 and for the same or less money.

quote:

Originally posted by Keith L:

quote:

I know my views will seem a bit one sided because despite encouragement from many satisfied users, I'm not a fan of computer audio. I much prefer the convenience and sound from physical media.

So you continually comment. Why do you persist in telling everyone you don't like distributed audio? I hear you loud and clear.

This thread is CD vs iTunes/Hard Drive - my view is CD.

However, my reason for commenting was to advise Mat to be wary of a particular set-up he said sounded interesting ... it was meant to be helpful. My advice can easily be ignored and no doubt is, by people like your good self.

Why does my posting offend you, Keith? It was not my intention.

I accept that downloading will be the only way to get some music in the future, it is sad, but true. So my hope is that Naim will release a box that enables music received in this way to be enjoyable. I only prefer CD at the moment because on a decent player it sounds better than a Computer Audio/NAS based system - surely that's not a crime. I'm not a banking executive ()

Still perhaps, you're right I'll desist from posting here and listen to music instead and leave you in peace to listen to your DAC.

ATB Rotf

From my perspective...the feedback from all on this thread has been a great help. Thanks.

quote:

I only prefer CD at the moment because on a decent player it sounds better than a Computer Audio/NAS based system - surely that's not a crime. I'm not a banking executive ()

I can't agree with that! It seems to me it all depends on your DAC.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
Being one of those souls who latterly bought a Lavry and also owns a 500 system, I'm happy with my 555, which sounds superb. However, if I'd been running a Mac/Lavry and then auditioned a 555, I would have been seriously considering whether the huge additional outlay was justified, even allowing for the fact I was in the position to be able to afford it.

Tony you mentioned on a previous thread (now gone?) - the cable you were using between your DAC & Pre-amp. This wasn't the usual Flashback? Could you post the details again - and any comment on the relative performance w.r.t Flashback or Mark Grant varieties.

Many Thanks

Richard

quote:

I only prefer CD at the moment because on a decent player it sounds better than a Computer Audio/NAS based system - surely that's not a crime. I'm not a banking executive ()

I think that's a bit of a sweeping statment, there is no technical reason for a streaming solution to be worse than a CD player. In fact because of how a network based player requests and buffers data it has several fewer time critical technical issues to overcome than a CD player. I'm sure that once Naim have a range of streaming players views towards networked music solutions will change on here. You only have to look at the Linn forums for a much more positive outlook towards them.

I don't think one can say definitively that cd or computer is better than the other. Times are changing and bargains abound in both camps.

Right now I have both Sonos and and iPod (through the Wadia docking station) into a Lavry, and both sound very good on lossless rips - largely comparable to CD sound to my ears. And internet radio through the Sonos sounds way better than I thought it could.

On the other hand, with a well recorded cd (few and far between IMO), some newer cd players are pretty amazing sounding. For example, I recently compared a Bryston BCD1 to a Ayre C5xe and, despite the fact that the Bryston is roughly a third of the price of the Ayre, it sounded better on redbook discs. Of course, SACD still sounds better than all redbook, but then I only have a handful of SACDs. The Bryston was extremely impressive for not a lot of money.

I've not had the chance to hear the Naim 5i or 5x offerings, but they may be equally as good. But as much as I like the CDX2, IMO it and the players above are simply too expensive to justify based on the improved performance of the lesser-priced alternatives.

The great thing about both cd and computer is that it is now possible to get very good performance for very little outlay. Experimentation is highly recommended.

quote:

Still perhaps, you're right I'll desist from posting here and listen to music instead and leave you in peace to listen to your DAC.

ATB Rotf

Thank you

ATB Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Obsessed1:
Right now I have an iPod (through the Wadia docking station) into a Lavry, and both sound very good on lossless rips - largely comparable to CD sound to my ears. .

How are you connecting my Wadia to the Lavry, as the Wadia only has a coax digital output?

I currently use iPod/Wadia 170iT into a Russ Andrews DAC-1, as this offers Coax, optical and USB inputs. I am planning to get a better DAC very soon, but may now wait for one with a USB option as I like the flexibility.

quote:

Originally posted by paremus:
any comment on the relative performance w.r.t Flashback or Mark Grant varieties.

FWIW I have just started listening to the Mark Grant cable after having it lying around for 2-3 months - the Flashback was sounding great and I just didn't want to disturb anything, I guess. Anyway, my experience (after about half an hour with some music I know well) is that the Mark Grant cable offers a quite significant improvement in the presentation of the timbres of most instruments (for lack of more suitable words, the best way that I can describe it would be a richer and more detailed presentation of the tonal characteristics of the instruments), especially but not only drums and percussion. The Flashback is still a very good choice when considered in isolation but a little veiled by comparison. The Mark Grant cable also seems to surface additional low level details and I would say provides a more cohesive and enjoyable overall presentation of the music (IMV anyway). So it's definitely staying (until something better comes along).

It's actually further improved my understanding of just how good the L***y is.

quote:

Originally posted by avole:
JN, think this has been argued before, but there's no possibility for difference in sound quality between well set up wireless and well set up cables. If you hear a difference, it's the DAC.

Not true. An spdif connection is electrical, so it allows electrical interaction between components. TOS or wireless do not. For this reason, you might note, Stereophile uses TOS when measuring digital processors.