n-vi ( in stock )
Posted by: john R1 on 01 May 2006
browsing on the internet, see a naim dealer stating n-vi in stock, i presume these must be old stock, i would have thought with all the problems i have read about on the forums they would have been re-called until all the problems had been sorted out ?
Posted on: 17 May 2006 by Duncan Fullerton
John,
The lip sync feature is for micro adjustments on the DVD.
Duncan
The lip sync feature is for micro adjustments on the DVD.
Duncan
Posted on: 17 May 2006 by Duncan Fullerton
quote:Originally posted by Duncan Fullerton:quote:
If you are referring to audio being delayed from video on sky boxes. To correct this:-
would either require a video delay to allow the audio stream to catch up (not what the n-Vi does).
OR
putting the audio in a time-warp and forwarding in to the future (sadly not possible).
I’m confused. This is the original party line I was given when I first reported the fault. Since that time, in conversations with both my dealer and Adam, I’ve been given to understand that Naim accept the fault and will rectify it.
As far as I am concerned it has bugger all to do with time shifting video or audio, but with designing the box properly so that it does not introduce a delay. Asking the question on other forums I’ve found plenty of people who do not experience a delay on their Sky+ digital optical output through their DSP processors.
Two questions:
1) Is this the official Naim stance that the problem is with Sky+ and not the n-vi? If not, is this now fixed in the replacement box my dealer tells me to expect later this week?
2) Have Naim actually tried an optical out from Sky+ via an n-vi and then via a cheap DSP? No? I have, and guess what? The latter works!
Given that potential customers for the n-vi will read this forum, and if Naim insist that the problem lies with Sky+, then Naim should be up front and warn them that Sky+ and the n-vi will not work together. I.e. if Sky+/HD/other TV source with a digital optical output is your bag then look elsewhere than an n-vi.
Duncan
Posted on: 17 May 2006 by john R1
duncan, the more i read about the n-vi the worse it seems to get, was hoping to use my telewest tv drive via optical into the n-vi, who knows might have the same problem, have sent an e-mail to naim regarding this issue, i await there reply to see if i need to cancel my order before i even get my n-vi, as i stated in my e-mail something that cost £3000 that you can't even watch digital tv through is in my mind taking the piss, at the moment using denon 3805 no problems with lip-sync issues whatever is feed into it, and the dsp modes work with analogue inputs,
Posted on: 17 May 2006 by jasons
Sky itself has always had lipsync issues.
Unfortunately, as stated, there isnt anything that can be done as its the wrong way round for correction.
Also, the more revealing and detailed the equipment is that the audio is being passe through, the more noticeable it is.
I had a long discussion about this with Chord when i had an av set up.
Unfortunately, as stated, there isnt anything that can be done as its the wrong way round for correction.
Also, the more revealing and detailed the equipment is that the audio is being passe through, the more noticeable it is.
I had a long discussion about this with Chord when i had an av set up.
Posted on: 17 May 2006 by David Dever
...and it's not just a Sky problem–I've pointed this out before, but you may notice differences from channel to channel, program to program, all from the same provider (e.g., Comcast in the States), exclusive of cable/satellite box hardware-induced delays.
The issue is largely a newer manifestation of the old AV chestnut of audio / video synchronization. Content providers use different systems, and there's no way (period) to insure that the signals will EVER be synchronized without a major re-think about digital media encoding in general, sorry.
At least with a DVD player, you have one source with a known RANGE of delays (depending on decoding format) between the video and audio streams.
The issue is largely a newer manifestation of the old AV chestnut of audio / video synchronization. Content providers use different systems, and there's no way (period) to insure that the signals will EVER be synchronized without a major re-think about digital media encoding in general, sorry.
At least with a DVD player, you have one source with a known RANGE of delays (depending on decoding format) between the video and audio streams.
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by Duncan Fullerton
Maybe the issue here is one of the degree of the delay.
As I say I've not been able to reproduce this via other DSP/digital combinations nor, trawling various BB's, have I found others who could. If however there is an intrisic delay in some digital broadcasts then that delay must be of the order of a few milliseconds and not noticable to most people.
I see a delay of 250ms - a quarter of a second - noticable to anyone who can see. Read this paragraph aloud and figure out how many words per second you speak. Now think about delaying the sound by 250ms.
How do I know it's 250ms? Call me a saddo but in trying to figure out a way to quantify it early on I thought of Countdown on Ch 4. The clock music lasts 30 seconds and has near enough 60 beats, i.e 500ms. When I listened with both the n-vi and my TV's speakers I got double the number of beats evenly spaced, i.e. 250ms.
Now this is such a gross error that I cannot believe no-one using Sky has pointed this out if this is their fault. This is why I believe it is a time delay introduced in digital optical input the n-vi. This is what I thought Naim had acknowledged and were addressing.
Duncan
As I say I've not been able to reproduce this via other DSP/digital combinations nor, trawling various BB's, have I found others who could. If however there is an intrisic delay in some digital broadcasts then that delay must be of the order of a few milliseconds and not noticable to most people.
I see a delay of 250ms - a quarter of a second - noticable to anyone who can see. Read this paragraph aloud and figure out how many words per second you speak. Now think about delaying the sound by 250ms.
How do I know it's 250ms? Call me a saddo but in trying to figure out a way to quantify it early on I thought of Countdown on Ch 4. The clock music lasts 30 seconds and has near enough 60 beats, i.e 500ms. When I listened with both the n-vi and my TV's speakers I got double the number of beats evenly spaced, i.e. 250ms.
Now this is such a gross error that I cannot believe no-one using Sky has pointed this out if this is their fault. This is why I believe it is a time delay introduced in digital optical input the n-vi. This is what I thought Naim had acknowledged and were addressing.
Duncan
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by Duncan Fullerton
John
Re: cancelling your order ...
You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment.
Duncan
Re: cancelling your order ...
You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment.
Duncan
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by 110dB
Lip-sync on SKY.
I’ve Sky and I find lip sync problems sometimes, it is down to my Panasonic SKY box, not my Naim kit. To fix it I re-boot the skybox, then it’s ok for a few months.
Also; if you are using SKY into an n-Vi you have to ensure the sample rate is correct. SKY transmits at 48kHz and should send that info in the SPDIF data. On some models they do not! The n-Vi then assumes it is 44.1kHz and the audio will sound out of sync, slow and glitches! If it sounds ok it is not that, but if it is this is how you change it. Select your SKY input, Press and hold ‘angle’ on the n-Vi remote, a service menu will appear, select PCM Freq, change the relevant input from AUTO to 48kHz.
If it is none of the above, do this test.
Connect both the analogue and digital outputs from your skybox to the n-Vi.
Switch between the two on the n-Vi. If the delay on the analogue and digital signals is the same, i.e. the analogue has the same problem we know conclusively that it is exclusively the skybox at fault, as the analogue signal will travel roughly at the sound of light! If the lip-sync is worse on digital it needs more investigation.
But remember if the audio is delayed from the skybox, no audio decoder can fix that!
I’ve Sky and I find lip sync problems sometimes, it is down to my Panasonic SKY box, not my Naim kit. To fix it I re-boot the skybox, then it’s ok for a few months.
Also; if you are using SKY into an n-Vi you have to ensure the sample rate is correct. SKY transmits at 48kHz and should send that info in the SPDIF data. On some models they do not! The n-Vi then assumes it is 44.1kHz and the audio will sound out of sync, slow and glitches! If it sounds ok it is not that, but if it is this is how you change it. Select your SKY input, Press and hold ‘angle’ on the n-Vi remote, a service menu will appear, select PCM Freq, change the relevant input from AUTO to 48kHz.
If it is none of the above, do this test.
Connect both the analogue and digital outputs from your skybox to the n-Vi.
Switch between the two on the n-Vi. If the delay on the analogue and digital signals is the same, i.e. the analogue has the same problem we know conclusively that it is exclusively the skybox at fault, as the analogue signal will travel roughly at the sound of light! If the lip-sync is worse on digital it needs more investigation.
But remember if the audio is delayed from the skybox, no audio decoder can fix that!
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by john R1
there is a very slight lyp-sync issue with telewest which is acceptable to me, its if the n-vi makes it worse which bothers me ? i dont know if there is a delay with sky in general terms compared with analogue or even freeview receivers, there has always been a delay with telewest compared to the other two,sometimes as much as 2 seconds behind the portable analogue tv
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by Duncan Fullerton
110dB,
Thanks for your reply.
Do you see lip sync delays approaching 250ms with your Sky? I've just deep re-booted (power cable out) the Sky box (Pace Sky+). The problem is still there.
I checked the Angle menu. I can see a "Status" submenu with "PCM - A0/1/2/34" numbers and a few others. In the "Settings" submenu there is nothing that looks like a PCM frequency. Are you coming from an AV2 POV? Not sure I need this as apart from the delay the sounds is fine.
Unfortunately you can't plug Sky into the n-vi on its analogue inputs as there are no A to D converters on those inputs (unlike the AV2). I.e. you cannot apply DSP modes to n-vi's analogue inputs. Hence why I am keen to resolve this issue on the digital optical input - it is my only option, and the only option for anyone with an external TV box who wants to DSP the output via an n-vi.
As an aside, I just switched to an analogue input (A1, my LP12) to confirm there is no DSP on it. When I switched back to D1 (Sky+) there was no sound. Needed a back panel reboot. I have to do this three or four times a night. You may see where my frustrations are coming from …
Duncan
Thanks for your reply.
Do you see lip sync delays approaching 250ms with your Sky? I've just deep re-booted (power cable out) the Sky box (Pace Sky+). The problem is still there.
I checked the Angle menu. I can see a "Status" submenu with "PCM - A0/1/2/34" numbers and a few others. In the "Settings" submenu there is nothing that looks like a PCM frequency. Are you coming from an AV2 POV? Not sure I need this as apart from the delay the sounds is fine.
Unfortunately you can't plug Sky into the n-vi on its analogue inputs as there are no A to D converters on those inputs (unlike the AV2). I.e. you cannot apply DSP modes to n-vi's analogue inputs. Hence why I am keen to resolve this issue on the digital optical input - it is my only option, and the only option for anyone with an external TV box who wants to DSP the output via an n-vi.
As an aside, I just switched to an analogue input (A1, my LP12) to confirm there is no DSP on it. When I switched back to D1 (Sky+) there was no sound. Needed a back panel reboot. I have to do this three or four times a night. You may see where my frustrations are coming from …
Duncan
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by Frank Abela
John,
Synching audio and video has been a problem with the media for a very long time, be it broadcast media or AV media (DVD/VHS). Most decent surround processors have a lip-synch feature to help the problem exhibited by the original medium i.e. a (typically digital) broadcast or a DVD. This is not a fault of an n-Vi or, indeed, your AVR3805 which also has a lip-sync feature! It's only very basic processors that do not have a feature of this sort, which is a bad thing. Incidentally, the n-Vi is one of the few that can handle really gross errors of 250ms.
I think the waiting has really got to you John.
Synching audio and video has been a problem with the media for a very long time, be it broadcast media or AV media (DVD/VHS). Most decent surround processors have a lip-synch feature to help the problem exhibited by the original medium i.e. a (typically digital) broadcast or a DVD. This is not a fault of an n-Vi or, indeed, your AVR3805 which also has a lip-sync feature! It's only very basic processors that do not have a feature of this sort, which is a bad thing. Incidentally, the n-Vi is one of the few that can handle really gross errors of 250ms.
I think the waiting has really got to you John.
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by AV@naim
I have this very morning passed a digital (optical and co-axial) and analogue signal from a DVD5 to an n-vi (analogue1, digital1 and 2).
with a film playing from the DVD5 (both 5.1 and 2.0) through a sim2 projector and the sound going via the n-vi digital/analogue inputs, there is NO delay.
I have also run the 2.0 signal as PLII, neo6 etc....still NO delay.
with a film playing from the DVD5 (both 5.1 and 2.0) through a sim2 projector and the sound going via the n-vi digital/analogue inputs, there is NO delay.
I have also run the 2.0 signal as PLII, neo6 etc....still NO delay.
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by AV@naim
The change of sample rate (available from service menu) is only available on 75 or later PIC code.
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by Duncan Fullerton
AV@Naim
Thanks for that. That seems to be a conclusive test although it would be neat if you could try with Sky comparing A1 and D1 from the same Sky box.
I've spent a while on the phone to Sky this morning who are certain that this level of delay is not a problem with their service. I've also just plugged the analogue from Sky into A1 and there are no delays on that (but no DSP either!).
So this leaves me a couple of choices:
1) Wait for my new n-vi to arrive and hope that the issue disappears. The fact that my "first gen" n-vi is a sick puppy in many ways may be clouding the issue.
2) If it persists with the new box in place, maybe look to change my Sky+ to a newer box. Mine is at least three years old. "First gen" again. A friends Sky+, a bit newer, has no such problem with it's dig opt output.
Duncan
Thanks for that. That seems to be a conclusive test although it would be neat if you could try with Sky comparing A1 and D1 from the same Sky box.
I've spent a while on the phone to Sky this morning who are certain that this level of delay is not a problem with their service. I've also just plugged the analogue from Sky into A1 and there are no delays on that (but no DSP either!).
So this leaves me a couple of choices:
1) Wait for my new n-vi to arrive and hope that the issue disappears. The fact that my "first gen" n-vi is a sick puppy in many ways may be clouding the issue.
2) If it persists with the new box in place, maybe look to change my Sky+ to a newer box. Mine is at least three years old. "First gen" again. A friends Sky+, a bit newer, has no such problem with it's dig opt output.
Duncan
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by AV@naim
duncan,
On the n-Vi:-
Can you tell me what values are opposite A0, A1, A2, A3, A4 with your sky box attached and running as normal via n-Vi.
On the n-Vi:-
Can you tell me what values are opposite A0, A1, A2, A3, A4 with your sky box attached and running as normal via n-Vi.
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by Duncan Fullerton
AV@Naim
The numbers are:
A0 000
A1 100
A2 000
A3 002
A4 000
Duncan
The numbers are:
A0 000
A1 100
A2 000
A3 002
A4 000
Duncan
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by 110dB
Duncan,
To set the PCM freq:
Press and hold angle.The service menu will appear
Select PCM FREQ - it is on the 3rd line down.
Then select D1 (optical)
Then select 48kHz.
PS my sky box would be more than 1/4 second!
Its been ok for a few months now.
What s/ware are you running?
I've got V163 and V75 - working fine for me!
(press and hold PROG to find your version.
To set the PCM freq:
Press and hold angle.The service menu will appear
Select PCM FREQ - it is on the 3rd line down.
Then select D1 (optical)
Then select 48kHz.
PS my sky box would be more than 1/4 second!
Its been ok for a few months now.
What s/ware are you running?
I've got V163 and V75 - working fine for me!
(press and hold PROG to find your version.
Posted on: 18 May 2006 by AV@naim
As I said, he wont be able to do this on pre 75 firmware
Posted on: 19 May 2006 by Brett 10
Problems with lypsync
I have had the same problem as the post above but have noticed on Sky+, that when watching a pre-recoded program there are no problems with lyp-sync, I assume that is because the data is coming from the hard drive and not from a satellite.
I'll try the set-up as suggested 110db!
I have had the same problem as the post above but have noticed on Sky+, that when watching a pre-recoded program there are no problems with lyp-sync, I assume that is because the data is coming from the hard drive and not from a satellite.
I'll try the set-up as suggested 110db!