NAIM DAC - latency in sonos system. HELP

Posted by: lamby2244 on 07 February 2010

Hi all - two posts in 24hrs; this is feeling like home.

I have an issue. My Naim DAC has introduced latency into my system. The challenge is that I have an open plan lounge, diner and kitchen which has two zones because of the space (a nice problem to have I guess). Clearly the DAC is processing and therefore lagging behind the Zone Player in the Kitchen which is introducing an eery cathedral like reverb!

Is there anything I can do? Sonos has no control in the software so I was wondering if there was something I could introduce that would help, and no another naim dac is not on the cards yet.... I planned an xps or a 250 upgrade!

Set up -

Lounge = ZP90 / DAC / 282 / 200 / Neat MF5s
Kitchen = ZP120 / neat petites

Any Ideas?

Thanks,
Simon

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by MartinCA

I imagine that would be the effect of the buffering that the DAC does. I can't see how you can stop that. The only thing I can think of is to find a way to slow down the delivery in the kitchen - but I have no idea how to achieve that!

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by garyi

I am going to stick a guess out there and say you are stuffed regarding your issue.

Sonos is clearly not designed to be used in the way you are using it. Surely and external DAC will introduce a lag even if only a fraction of a second.

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by garyi

quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
I am going to stick a guess out there and say you are stuffed regarding your issue.

Sonos is clearly not designed to be used in the way you are using it. Surely an external DAC will introduce a lag even if only a fraction of a second.

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by lamby2244

quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
I am going to stick a guess out there and say you are stuffed regarding your issue.

Sonos is clearly not designed to be used in the way you are using it. Surely an external DAC will introduce a lag even if only a fraction of a second.

Maybe I am stuffed. The previous DAC introduced a delay but it was not significant; this is noticeable even by my 11 year old he he

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by DaveBk

Unless Sonos have a way of introducing a compensating delay into the replay chain via their own software I think you are stuck with this. Can't think of a way around it - Sorry...

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by rich46

quote:
Originally posted by DaveBk:
Unless Sonos have a way of introducing a compensating delay into the replay chain via their own software I think you are stuck with this. Can't think of a way around it - Sorry...

can you hard wire the 120

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by lamby2244

quote:
Originally posted by rich46:
quote:
Originally posted by DaveBk:
Unless Sonos have a way of introducing a compensating delay into the replay chain via their own software I think you are stuck with this. Can't think of a way around it - Sorry...
can you hard wire the 120

Hi - what do you mean by hardwire? cheers

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by SimonJ

Easy, just buy another Naim DAC for the other room!!

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by lamby2244

quote:
Originally posted by SimonJ:
Easy, just buy another Naim DAC for the other room!!

HE HE HE HE LOL yeah it has crossed my mind more than once!!

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by lamby2244

quote:
Originally posted by lamby2244:
quote:
Originally posted by SimonJ:
Easy, just buy another Naim DAC for the other room!!

HE HE HE HE LOL yeah it has crossed my mind more than once!!

Actually thinking about it I have a zp80 spare so if I buy an amp and slot my cambridge dac in I might get the same effect. I would then have a zp120 for my bedroom. hmmm

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by WhatYouSeeandHear

quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
I am going to stick a guess out there and say you are stuffed regarding your issue.

Sonos is clearly not designed to be used in the way you are using it. Surely and external DAC will introduce a lag even if only a fraction of a second.

Hi

As he said.

Serious and expensive techonology would ne needed to meet your needs without compromising the signal.

Naimnet will solve it.

Richard will probably explain but at present its best to listen to one and have other rooms switched off.

As I am typing the TV in this room is running terrestrial direct from the aerial.

Next door the TV is running from a Humax PVR and the processing delay causes the same sort of problem if the door is open and we are watching the same channel.

Unfortunately what seems like a minor inconvenience with the notion of a simple adjustment is actually no such thing.

Good luck.

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by megholm

There is a company that does "lip sync correction boxes" for use in home theater systems. Google "lip sync error fix", it would probably solve the problem. It isnt cheap though.

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by JYOW

I wonder why I do not notice any lip sync problem when playing DVD/Bluray with the Cambridge player connected to the DAC. May be it is too small to be noticeable.

Posted on: 07 February 2010 by megholm

quote:
Originally posted by JYOW:
I wonder why I do not notice any lip sync problem when playing DVD/Bluray with the Cambridge player connected to the DAC. May be it is too small to be noticeable.

The lip sync problem most often is from the delay that the plasma/lcd screen introduces, making a delay of sound required. So in your case, the small delay that the dac introduces may actually be just whats needed. If you are using a "digital" screen/projector that is.

Posted on: 08 February 2010 by Mister Spense

My guess would be to connect the ZP90 to the 282 with an analogue cable. It will most probably rid you of the reverb. And for (more) serious listening chose the Naim DAC.

Posted on: 08 February 2010 by intothevoid

Simon,
Does the ZP90 output over both digital and analogue simultaneously? If so, you could connect the digital to the Naim DAC and the analog to your 282. Then switch sources when you are doing critical listening via the Naim DAC, and non-critical via the Sonos DAC. At least this way the timing will be right and you won't suffer the reverb when you play zones together.

The Sonos IS meant to be used this way; that's why it has both analog and digital outputs. It's just a shame that the internal Sonos DAC isn't that great comparatively. It would be nice is Sonos made a serious attempt at an audiophile zone player, just like Slim Devices did with the Transporter. Oh, and 24/96 would be good too.

HTH
Steve

Posted on: 08 February 2010 by lamby2244

quote:
Originally posted by intothevoid:
Simon,
Does the ZP90 output over both digital and analogue simultaneously? If so, you could connect the digital to the Naim DAC and the analog to your 282. Then switch sources when you are doing critical listening via the Naim DAC, and non-critical via the Sonos DAC. At least this way the timing will be right and you won't suffer the reverb when you play zones together.

The Sonos IS meant to be used this way; that's why it has both analog and digital outputs. It's just a shame that the internal Sonos DAC isn't that great comparatively. It would be nice is Sonos made a serious attempt at an audiophile zone player, just like Slim Devices did with the Transporter. Oh, and 24/96 would be good too.

HTH
Steve

Steve thanks for this - yes this is how I have it set up as of this morning. Seems like a waste of the DAC.

I have found another solution however. The chaps above have pointed to lip sync products and when I googled "digital audio delay" quite a few products came back from £79 to £600.

Does anyone have a recommendation? The Felston product looks good. My plan is to move a ZP80 to this space and put the delay product between it and the amp and hopefully all sorted - wonder what the sound will be like.....

Thanks so far!

Simon

Posted on: 08 February 2010 by Richard Dane

I believe it is one of the USPs of Naimnet/Netstreams that the system allows perfect synchronisation of streams across the multi-room system. Thus you can have every room playing the same music and you will avoid latency issues. AFAIK, it does this better than any other system.

Of course, that doesn't really solve your problem - at least, not unless you're looking to upgrade to Naimnet! However, it does highlight the latency issue with most multi-room installations. The addition of a DAC, especially one that buffers the incoming digital stream, will just make things worse.

btw, I think this thread is best in the Distributed Audio room.

Posted on: 08 February 2010 by js

quote:
Originally posted by lamby2244:
quote:
Originally posted by intothevoid:
Simon,
Does the ZP90 output over both digital and analogue simultaneously? If so, you could connect the digital to the Naim DAC and the analog to your 282. Then switch sources when you are doing critical listening via the Naim DAC, and non-critical via the Sonos DAC. At least this way the timing will be right and you won't suffer the reverb when you play zones together.

The Sonos IS meant to be used this way; that's why it has both analog and digital outputs. It's just a shame that the internal Sonos DAC isn't that great comparatively. It would be nice is Sonos made a serious attempt at an audiophile zone player, just like Slim Devices did with the Transporter. Oh, and 24/96 would be good too.

HTH
Steve

Steve thanks for this - yes this is how I have it set up as of this morning. Seems like a waste of the DAC.

I have found another solution however. The chaps above have pointed to lip sync products and when I googled "digital audio delay" quite a few products came back from £79 to £600.

Does anyone have a recommendation? The Felston product looks good. My plan is to move a ZP80 to this space and put the delay product between it and the amp and hopefully all sorted - wonder what the sound will be like.....

Thanks so far!

Simon

You have 2 options. First is as you are doing now. When you can hear both at once, it's hardly critical listening and not using the DAC shouldn't be that bothersome as long as it was available when serious. The other is more convoluted and I haven't tried but you can give it a go. Run a short patch cord from the zp90 out to in. When you want to use both together, select your listening source on the 90 and for the 120 choose line in. The analog out from the 90 is digitized and sent to the 120. This causes a clear delay. Now, this may be too much and behind the DAC but it's the only possible solution without more kit. You may get lucky with the timing but I suspect the 120 will now be behind the DAC.

Posted on: 09 February 2010 by js

More thoughts: Forget about lip sync boxes as they have no place to be used. They can't advance the audio so putting it at the DAC is useless and there's no available position for it on a stand alone Sonos box. If your 120 is the send device wireddirectly to your PC and the 80 is not, perhaps reversing that would also help. Did you try my earlier wiring setup?

Posted on: 09 February 2010 by pcstockton

why are both zones playing at the same time?

Maybe to incorporate each of those areas into one zone is the key.

Posted on: 09 February 2010 by pcstockton

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dane:
I believe it is one of the USPs of Naimnet/Netstreams that the system allows perfect synchronisation of streams across the multi-room system. Thus you can have every room playing the same music and you will avoid latency issues. AFAIK, it does this better than any other system.

Execpt for the "speed of sound" issue. If it is far enough away, you will hear a delay regardless. Keep the speakers off or lower in volume if across the house. No experts needed.

Posted on: 09 February 2010 by JYOW

I used to do it with my Squeezebox 2 and Transporter, I could not discern any delays.

Posted on: 13 February 2010 by lamby2244

quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dane:
I believe it is one of the USPs of Naimnet/Netstreams that the system allows perfect synchronisation of streams across the multi-room system. Thus you can have every room playing the same music and you will avoid latency issues. AFAIK, it does this better than any other system.

Execpt for the "speed of sound" issue. If it is far enough away, you will hear a delay regardless. Keep the speakers off or lower in volume if across the house. No experts needed.

Hmmm but the zones are on the same floor of an open plan house so the echo created by the buffering is really noticeable. The big problem is that the DAC makes such a difference in the Lounge that it is such a waste to switch it off!

The only sub 2k solution seems to be a ZP90 with a lip sync audio delay box into a cheap dac and then into an amp...... hmm

Posted on: 14 February 2010 by lamby2244

SO.......

I am still researching solutions but where I have landed to date is that I will take the ZP120 out and use it upstairs. I will potentially put a ZP80 in with a lip synch box between it and an amp with a digital in like the Onkyo a-5vl. I am hoping that will solve the issue. The DAC make SUCH a difference that is would be criminal to take it out of the equation. Anyone have any other solutions or suggestions of a decent amp with an onboard DAC that is under £1000. The quality in the kitchen is not that important as I do tend to make quite a lot of noise when cooking! lol