Not good enough for rock'n'roll?!?

-=> Dev <=-

I doubt that the XPS will add quantity without the pre-requisite quality. You've heard the CDS2? If so, then that might answer the question for you.

It should be a case of the XPS giving the required amount of bass when needed. According to some of the replies to my own questions about the XPS, it will enhance the portrayal of spiritual intent controlling the musical strands.

When you get the XPS, methinks you will be in the market for some loudspeakers with some real (and controlled) bass extension! Might be worth trying out the SBLs again, or the allaes.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

I'm actually quite happy with my Albion. The voicing on them is amazing! Also, I'm moving my system into a smaller room, so the they will seem omnipresent.

I would never purchase SBLs, because setup is too much of a problem. As far as I'm concerned it's a deficient design, and I won't have anything to do with it. NBLs are nice, but I think they're too big for my room. We'll see about the SBL replacement coming out in a year or two; perhaps it will be more sensible. However, I'm also looking forward to the new Royds, and I wouldn't be surprised if I go that direction. For now, though, the Albions are lovely.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

quote:

---

As far as I'm concerned it's a deficient design,

---

Mike,

With respect, that is the biggest load of bollocks I have read in ages.

Come and listen to my SBL's one day. Properly driven they sound magnificent.

Dev

Why is set-up too much of a problem? A quick whizz around with the mastic and you're there. With your system, the SBLs will work.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

In stark contrast, Albions have always sounded good, and in a wide variety of rooms.

BTW, my room is drywalled, and the speaker wall has a bay window starting half way up. Therefore, SBLs won't work. It's just not worth the hassle to try.

SBLs should be sold with a disclaimer: "They sound great in perfect conditions, but they are more likely to disappoint." Even Naim realizes this, since they've been addressing these issues with their newer designs.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

i know you dont like these speakers, for the quite valid reasons you have mentioned, none of which indicate that their design is in any way deficient. sbl's have been around and doing very well for a long long time. i am sure you agree deficient designs simply tend not to last that long.

apologies if i am being presumptuous(sp??), but deep down, i sense that you may be unhappy with some aspect of your current system even if you say otherwise... i think, like all of us, the upgrade-itis bug has struck, and you may be looking for ways to justify the expense ??:D

i simply cannot see how a friends comment can get you thinking about a 52!!!

having said that, it goes without saying, and i am sure you already know, that a 52 is a very very big upgrade from where you are. i think you will like the result, regardless of what your "rock-and-roll with plenty of bass" friend might think... i have read enough positive about the xps-effect to also know this is a very good idea musically. go for it!!!

enjoy

ken

quote:

---

none of which indicate that their design is in any way deficient.

---

I suppose that "defficient" is a rather harsh word. How about "limited", "problematic", "fickle", etc.? It only works some of the time, and that's its problem.

quote:

---

i simply cannot see how a friends comment can get you thinking about a 52

---

I was already thinking about the 52.

quote:

---

i sense that you may be unhappy with some aspect of your current system

---

I'm constantly in a state of contented yearning. I like what I have, but I know it can be better. When I can afford to upgrade, I do so. Of course when you upgrade, you expect to get certain improvements. You try to upgrade things that will give you the most bang for the buck at each step up.

I've done comparisons between CDX, CDX/XPS and CDS2, so I'm pretty familiar with that. I wouldn't have described it as more bass weight, so much as more bass control and finesse. The bass seems to be there with the bare CDX, but it's not as defined as it is with the XPS helping out.

I've never done an A/B comparison of an 82 and 52, but I've heard very good things about the 52. Specifically the lyricism and flow is improved, which is something that I really appreciate.

I've never been overly impressed with power amp upgrades, although my favourite system so far was CDS2/52/500/NBL. It was much better than the same system with 135s, so a really good power amp is something to appreciate.

For now I'm just climbing the ladder. I suspect that I'll get a 52 after the XPS, just because it's easier and cheaper. (CDS2 head units don't often appear used, whereas 52s do.) In the end, I really enjoy the way my system sounds now, and I'll enjoy it even more later.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

2.

quote:

---

SBLs should be sold with a disclaimer: "They sound great in perfect conditions, but they are more likely to disappoint." Even Naim realizes this, since they've been addressing these issues with their newer designs.

---

If you talk with dealers experienced with installing SBL's, you'll learn that in fact they work better than most mortal speakers, in more of the less-than-perfect environments (most commonly encountered - who here has a 'perfect' environment?) than lesser speakers. It isn't hard to make them work well in typical installations. You make it sound as though they are knife-edge balanced bits of kit, as in a wildly tuned race engine - this simply isn't the case. I will concede however, that they sound best with a solid wall behind them.

but dude, you're banging on [u]yet again[/u] about a speaker you both don't like, and don't appear to understand. You must surely realise that Naim will not be baited with your imflamatory jibes. Pretty soon none of us here will bother responding either. The other's observations above are correct Might I suggest at this juncture that you simply chill out on the SBLs and focus on your XPS, and enjoy the music. Or put in your earplugs, come to London (then remove the plugs from your lugs), and hear them make music magical.

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

[This message was edited by Rico on MONDAY 04 June 2001 at 19:33.]

I never was totally happy with Rock with my CDS2/52/250 Royd Albions. There was something a bit dry and flat about a good rock piece. It wasn't until I got my act 2s that I realized how limited albions really were. The upgrade was like going from a CD3.5/102/180 to the CDS2/52/250. And I'm not exaggerating. But do you want to spend that much on new speakers (20 K CD)? I'm sure other speakers like Mezzo Utopias, Avalons, or other ultra high enders will satisfy in a similar way, but its all a question of where you want to stop and how important your system is. With the albions I listened mostly to the head phones and the radio as background music. With the act 2s I listen almost exclusively to the CDS 2 and haven't ONCE picked up my headphones in over two months. There is consistently a stck of 20-30 CDs on top of the CDs 2, where before I would only have one or two.

Dave

Ex albion junkie (but now reformed)

One of these days I may get a chance to hear SBLs perform acceptably. Until then, I'll try not to gripe too much.

And yes, I'm really looking forward to the XPS. I don't know whether I'll do the CDS2 or 52 next. It will probably depend on circumstances. Eventually I would like to get both, along with swapping my 250 for a pair of 135s. In the meantime, I'm going to be happy with my system as it is.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I know that I like the NBLs more than my Albions, but even they sound a touch dry. I haven't really listened to many speakers in that price bracket, either. I'll wait until I have at least CDS2/52/250 before I start considering replacing the Albions, though.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I'm constantly in a state of contented yearning. ...

very well put...

enjoy

ken

For well more than a year or so both you and Vuk have both seen repeated posts about what an XPS can do for the CDX.

I find it incomprehensible that neither of you have purchased one yet. It's a whole nother player with the XPS, Mana or no. There are many here who will attest!

Personally, I never really got the hang of the CDX until I got the XPS. It changes from playing CD's to playing music!

Arthur Bye

Your welcome to stop by whenever your in the area. The CDS 2 and 52 are no brainers, but once you get to a CDS 2/52/250 there is such a myriad of possible paths. 135s when they may be soon replaced? a 500, but at what cost? New speakers, but will a 250 be enough?

I was lucky that the AcT 2s fit in like a glove. Its like they have an eerie combination of sounding extremely delicate and cohesive as if they are not there at all and your are witnessing the real thing, and the grip, power, and dynamics that you'd only expect from a speaker much bigger. And they time infectiously well.

But I may soon have the opportunity for a 500 home demo...

cheers,

davee

quote:

---

For well more than a year or so both you and Vuk have both seen repeated posts about what an XPS can do for the CDX. I find it incomprehensible that neither of you have purchased one yet.

---

I understand your confusion. I think a big reason for me was that it required a direct purchase, rather than a box upgrade. I have a US$2000 "pain threshold". When I got the CDX, I traded in my 3.5. The 82 replaced the 102, the Super-Cap replaced the Hi-Caps, and the 250 replaced the 140. Each of these upgrades were below my threshold, after trade in. In contrast, the XPS is double. The CDS2 is going to be another tough one, which is why I'm leaning toward a 52 as my next step.

The other factor is that my system sounds great right now, so there's no pain. As I upgrade each piece, it's all pleasure. If one particular box costs a lot, then I start to feel pain. Regardless, there's always a time when it makes the most sense. That's why I'm getting the XPS now.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've done the direct comparison between CDX, CDX/XPS and CDS2. I agree that the CDX/XPS is way better than the CDX alone. In fact, the bare CDX sounds "sloppy" and in some ways "broken" in comparison to the CDX/XPS. The CDS2 is another level altogether. It makes everything sound easy in comparison to the CDX/XPS, although it doesn't make the CDX/XPS sound "broken".

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

quote:

---

I thought you promised about a year ago you were going to (1) stop making uninformed pronouncements about SBLs until you heard them in a home (rather than that system killing acoustic at the shop) AND (2) quit subjecting us to tidbits of sophmoric philosophy.

It's all compounded by the fact that you have the solution to your audio problems sitting in your closet right now!!! Be a man, set it up.

---

Yes, I had promised to settle down with the SBL issue. However, I was bored, and the SBLs seemed to be an easy target.

How is claiming the I'm simultaneously contented and yearning "sophmoric (sic) philosophy"? It's merely the way I am.

Yes, I've got my Mana in the closet. (That sounds lurid, doesn't it? ) I've got to get the room cleared out before I try to set it up. The closet may be too confining, so I may need to bash the closet wall out to open up the room. I won't be able to get to it for a week or so, because of two big customer deadlines.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Forgive me, but I do not understand where you are going with your postings about SBLs. They merely seem to be uniformed hyperbole, precipitated by your boredom.

Therefore all of your statements about the inadequacies of SBLs can be ignored.

regards,

Dev

quote:

---

It's a whole nother player with the XPS, Mana or no.

---

Well said, Arthur! I was so gobsmacked when I installed mine, that one had completely elluded me. A wood for trees thing, I guess - in that observation you've hit the nail on the head exactly!

quote:

---

Be a man, set it up.

---

quote:

---

I would make the effort to get the most out of these difficult, problematic and idiosyncratic speakers if I could only stop listening to them long enough.

---

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

[This message was edited by Rico on TUESDAY 05 June 2001 at 19:18.]

I've had a pair now for a couple of weeks and find that criticising them is easier than praising, musical and listenable though they may be. They're obviously highly sophisticated but I feel somewhat dated.

Treble - seems a bit 'grey' (or beige) by modern standards - a bit of a let down in the sparkle and purity departments.
Mid - as has been said, does seem a bit recessed, especially compared to Credos which were highly explicit in this area. Having said which, there is a lot of information (as per Credos).
Bass - doesn't have the 'out of box fullness' on classical of some big, more recent speakers; and with rock, the bass does seem detached from the mid, bopping along beside it. Very tuneful though!
(unlike the Credos).
Imaging - all over the wall, as Rico said. Splattergun.

What I feel is a lack of integration, and too much roughness throughout. Maybe just an older pair? I also feel that many of their design parameters were introduced to counter the problems of mid-80s speakers, no longer a relevant situation perhaps.

have you tried experimenting with the speaker positioning.

I used to have mine flat up against the wall (it was like this when you came around) but the sound was vastly improved when I toe-ed them in slightly. The outer corners of the speakers are now one inch further out from the wall than the inner corners.

Just be gentle when you move them and make sure that there is no wobble on the spikes.

Your system is such that you should be getting an excellent sound from the SBL's.

Regards

Mick

The CDX sans XPS is certainly NOT neutered, nor anywhere near it. It's a damned fine CD player, and times like a bastard. The first CD player I'd heard where I could just get on with listening to and enjoying the music.

It's just massivly improved with an XPS.

Chris said:

quote:

---

Imaging - all over the wall, as Rico said. Splattergun.

---

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

Sounds like your SBLs haven't been set-up properly; something's wrong somewhere; as Mick said, you'll need to experiment with your set-up to get the best out of the SBLs. They have an alarming propensity to sound awful when set-up wrongly, or when they're just new and running in, but done right prove to be a speaker promising a life-time dalliance with music-making of the highest quality. Then there's always the DBLs, which are in another league altogether.

I'm not sure what system you're using the SBLs with, or how old they are, which obviously affect their sonics to some degree.

I am very happy with my SBLs presently, and they are only passively driven. They exhibit none of the points you raised, so I am hopeful you'll find bliss with them soon, after you're done with the tuning.

Do look into Peter Chappell's posts in particular - you won't go wrong there : I've found his comments on cable set-up extremely helpful - the sum of all parts adds up to the big sonic picture. YOu might also like to read my earlier posts on SBL set-up, and while I'm certainly no sage in the know-all about them, the read could perhaps be useful.

Good listening; the music's still groovin'.

Regards

Philip Pang

naimniac for life

You realise now that you're halfway down to the altar, we'll be expecting a 'Bariks vs SBL's summary.

And thence arises the largish question: [Alan Freeman tone] What, will happen next? [/Alan Freeman tone] re your selection of transducers?

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

Maybe, but more likely setup and environment than the system itself, which is standard-issue upper-mid-range Naim (82/Super/250, CDX/XPS, LP12/geddon/XX1L, NACA5) - i.e. the ideal system for SBLs.

Maybe the mastic, maybe the spikes (which are not wobbling, but not exactly gripping the floorboards), maybe the part-plasterboard wall they're up against, maybe they're too far apart in a small room. I'll experiment with all these.

I have to say how much I enjoyed NBLs the last time I heard them. Perhaps when secondhand pairs start appearing we could pretend they're the SBL replacement, and use them in such a system rather than the top-range ones. Meantime, the struggle continues.