Not good enough for rock'n'roll?!?

I can't understand the problem you seem to be having here

I can't agree with your Credo analogy vis the mid range. My Credos were totally lacking in this area. Maybe it's a CDS2/52 thing I dunno.

Suffice to say. As soon as the SBLs were installed and running the immediate most tangible thing to me was the TIMING.

It was like my CDS2 had been suddenly been reclocked. Everything suddenly made more sense and the music became a more coherent whole.

The bass response was quite astonishing too.

My other half commented - "They sound so much more articulate and sophisticated - sort of more ROUNDED" (erk alors!)

How old are your SBLs?

Regards

Pete

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I just ordered an XPS, though, and I've read in a few other threads that it will increase the bass weight and punch. Is this going to overwhelm me? Will it satisfy my friend's expectations? Will it screw up everything but rock music? Do I need full range speakers? Is a 52 necessary to make the world a better place?

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Mike,

Yes it will. No. Quite possibly. Certainly not! No. Necessary? No.

You'll love it. No downsides at all. Lots of very big ups.

cheers, Martin

The CDX and 82 are destined for Mana phase 4 and 3, respectively, which is going to make a huge difference in itself. The rest of it will still sit on the X-caliber for now, until I get a 5 tier and another Sound Stage.

My room is also asymmetric like yours, Peter, and rather small. It's about 9x12 feet, with a 2x4 closet in one corner. However, double doors open behind me, which gives the music more space to breath.

I've also found that the sweet spot disappears as you move up the Naim ladder. I was listening to tunes with my friend last weekend. Sure, I didn't get the same balance of high frequency information if I wasn't "on-axis" (or there-abouts), but the music flowed throughout. Only the corners were really skewed, with extreme bass flourishing (pretty typical).

The dining room is off the listening room, so I meandered in there while the music was playing. When I stick my head into the corners where the speakers are to sit, I noticed it sounded "phasey". This may be due to the bay window that is behind the speaker's future position. I did have my head quite far into the corner, but I hope that window doesn't cause me fits of frustration. They still have the blinds on them, though, and I'm planning to replace them with curtains. We'll see. I'm also getting a dedicated mains line (or two) installed at some point.

My first step is to get all of the boxes in that room unpacked/moved, and get the Mana setup.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

[This message was edited by Mike Hanson on THURSDAY 07 June 2001 at 11:21.]

You won't be disappointed with the XPS and, yes, if you haven't already heard it and when it's warmed up, it will overwhelm you! This will be entirely positive. The CDS-II is better without a doubt. When I was demoing the CDX/XPS against the CDS-II I figure on around 15% extra being squeezed out of CD by the CDS-II. This is always difficult to quantify. It's only when the CDS-II has been switched on for about two weeks that it really starts to sing. The improvement is significant and should not be underestimated. I am assuming that this is because Naim have deliberatly avoided op-amp circuitry and used basic analogue design to meet the same goal. Presumably the capacitors take a little time to reach their peak. What about the CDX though? Well I listened to the CDX through my 52 hooked up to a 500. I couldn't live with it. Didn't listen to it through the 250 but I'd imagine that many of the same feelings would have existed. The dealer then said "let's try this with an XPS". This really did create a "Wow" factor. The music had more presence and 3-dimensionality about it. The base was stronger and more controlled and the level of detail was clearly superior. Look forward to getting your power supply and let us all know what you think. When it comes to the CDS-II, make sure that you ask your dealer to borrow one for about a week to see what it can really do. I ended up with the CDS-II but I think that CDX/XPS is still great and that's through a 52/500 combo!

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My room is also asymmetric like yours, Peter, and rather small.

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NO dig at you Mike - let it be noted here for the record (as it were), that Mr Chappell has the most asymetric room I've ever encountered, and all can be quite confident that it is absolutely unique. A good deal of work has gone into this environment (as we've read from many of his posts), and I can vouch for it being a great place to listen to music.

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

In comparison, if I setup the Panasonic midi system in a similar position, it sounds awful everywhere. There's no sense of control or finesse.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Mike, IMHO, there may be something wrong with the room perhaps ? That's the first time I heard Naim not suitable for rock, LOL. Since I switched to Naim, I have been increasingly listening to more heavy metal and powerful classical music, and other really punchy music. The bass can pound some into submission - drums, acoustic bass, electronic bass ...

BTW, I have a Michell Orbe on top of a Mana Reference Table, and after setting it up properly (low spikes, lightly screwed nuts, level perfect, nice ringing sound), I lost some mid to upper bass ! Normally powerful drums suddenly lost weight and power. I guess it's true that the Mana reduces midbass, which is good for Linn LP12s which are supposedly having too much midbass. Solved my problem by making the glass rattle a bit, taking out the ringing glass sound in the process. Now, I get the Mana effect, with smoother highs even, plus the bass I'm used to ...

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I'm always amazed at how a good stereo, properly setup, sounds good in all of the rooms where the music travels.

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so am i -- my nephew actually believes this is probably a good test for a system in full song...

enjoy

ken

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The bass can pound some into submission

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I think there's enough bass too. What my friend wants is that bloomy, bloated, one note, Cerwin Vega silliness. It's a particular "effect" that he's come to expect from rock'n'roll. I point out, which he grudgingly accepts, that it's not mixed that way in the studio. It doesn't change the fact that he wants it, and the stereo is "not good enough" if he can't have it.

Maybe I should get an EQ that I could put in-line with my CD player, just for when I play rock music for my friend.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

The Mana does wonders indeed in detail retrieval, this is for sure. At first setup of the Mana, I tightened the nuts real hard. This resulted in super detail and extremely tight bass, but with unbearable glare. Mana said I should loosen the screws, which I did, and this removed the glare (really mysterious, to me at least). However, the sound just wasn't natural enough, too analytical, a bit hard-sounding, and not as musical as before, and the bass was a bit lightweight. I decided it must be the ringing glass, 'coz I didn't have that problem on a glass-tiered Target rack (the glass doesn't ring). Making it out of tune just a wee bit gave me all that I wanted. I still have that great detail of Mana, but with a very natural sound (not "glassy"), and great bass. Now if I tap on the glass, I don't have that ringing sound anymore, just a thud, and a bit of rattle (which disappears once the deck is on top of the glass). I have also recently added in a special wooden platform (not available internationally) on top of the glass. This resulted in more weight, without affecting the detail - my version of Phase 4. Now I can listen to Metallica, Testament, Megadeth, etc. all day, soft or loud.

Anyway, hope this helps, to those who think Manas are too analytical, or cold, or hard-sounding (tiring). A common problem with some, and one guy even told me that it's no wonder the Mana room always gets the vote for worst sound of the show ... I think it's still a good product, properly tuned out of tune ...

My opinion only, of course, from my experience, in my own system. Try them properly set up first, or the above if you don't think you like it. I got my Manas from a dissatisfied user. But he did tighten the nuts so hard too, so he definitely won't be able to stand it ...

I've joined this thread late, I may have missed it but what system (with or without tone controls) has your friend got?

Also why do you care what your friend thinks about your system - assuming you are are happy with it?

Can't you enjoy the music? Is peer pressure so persuasive that it questions your faith in your system - will you only love it if he/she does?

Crossing threads... I hope you enjoy the CDSII and 52. I'm not really jealous.

Again you may have already answered this but are you keeping your CDX? Mana'd or otherwise?

Have fun

Chris

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what system (with or without tone controls) has your friend got?

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His system is laughable: It's some cheap Japanese CD player, a 30+ year old receiver, and Bose 301 speakers (leaning back on little stands a few inches off the floor). He realizes that his system is crap, but it doesn't stop him from adjusting the tone controls with each and every song, and getting a general level of satisfaction from it.

He does enjoy my system, and he thinks it's amazing. His only caveat is that he wants more bass with rock'n'roll. Without that bass, he's not satisfied. He's still amazed by the clarity, slam, power, etc., but he wants his trousers to flap. He's knows it's "wrong", but he still wants it to be happy.

IOW, he thinks a great system should be able (among other things) to reproduce the sound of a good dance club. Of course, those systems have dozens of 50" bass drivers, and an overly skewed EQ. If my system ever sounded like that, I would probably throw it out the window.

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Also why do you care what your friend thinks about your system - assuming you are are happy with it?

Can't you enjoy the music? Is peer pressure so persuasive that it questions your faith in your system - will you only love it if he/she does?

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Believe me, I love my system and I think it's wonderful. However, I also like to give pleasure to my friends. When they're disappointed, I want to understand why, and see if there's anything to do to improve it. I'm also intrigued by the concept of "right" and "wrong", from a relativistic perspective. I know that the bass that my system produces is much closer to "right" than what my friend expects, but does that really matter?

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are you keeping your CDX? Mana'd or otherwise?

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No, I'll be selling it. It would be nice to have a CDX in my office system, but I'm happy with my Cambridge CD6 for that purpose. If my office sounded too good, I might not get any work done.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-