The law of diminishing returns

ps. Bruce, you and I share the same dealer.

I would agree with you.

The biggest issue I guess is our own ability to distunguish between crap to OK to good to wonderful systems and experience comes into this big time. I'm sure that most of my friends could not distunguish very easily between say Nait5 and a 102/180 combination. I think this is really because when they listen, they hear the main melody, the bass is there, sounds pretty realistic. That is enough. However, the more they listen the more they hear, the detail and realism, the rhythm etc. etc. Once you start to listen more then you realise how much more there is to hear. I suspect that if I heard a CDS2/52/135 system it would seem like a worthwhile goal, however, up the ladder and I think I would have to draw the line, but then if I spent enough time listening to above system maybe I would have found the aspects that don't fit that could be improved on, I would aspire to CD?/552/500 and see that as a worthwhile upgrade. It would much cheaper if i couldn't distunguish bewteen a sony midi and a decent hifi, but I can and my life is the richer (poorer) for it.

I don't personally know anybody else who would see a 8K system (CDX/102?hicap/180/BWN804) as good value, however I do and am sure that future upgrades will happen and will all be good value.

cheers

Matthew

It has been said often enough but is still worth repeating: anyone with a good hi-fi who has not addressed the twin problems of room acoustics and mains quality has wasted most of their money.

Alex

My own upgrades petered out at the 72/hi/250/CDI level some time ago, and I consider this level of kit very good value indeed as I believe it gets you 95percent plus of whats achievable. Most ordinary mortals would consider this top of the ladder, certainly when objectively judged by price. For a variety of reasons, not least this Forum, my interest in hi-fi has rejuvenated and the predictable result is upgraditis. I now have 52/super/250/CDS (via an 82 as well). I also got a geddon to replace my Lingo (in sonic terms that was definitely not an upgrade, but did allow me to use my CD player to its best advantage).

Whilst undoubtedly better than the system that took its prior place for 7 years, I cannot get over how much more money it is - the infamous diminishing return that you speak about. Further, I really dont feel the 52 is in a different league to the 72. Dont get me wrong its clearly much better but its the same league - both a first division, not county players. Ive had county players over my hi-fi career; perhaps that what keeps my feet on the ground and a rather harsher objectivity? Alternatively, it could be a lack of cash or no lack of alternative hobbies to spend it on?

I turned 40 last weekend and splashed out 1700 on a new drum kit - I get at least a much pleasure out of that as my hi-fi, probably more.

Steve

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I just question the philosophy that the big changes in HiFi quality take place moving up the lower echelons of the value range but to suggest that my experience is that the pricey stuff actually delivers real value per pound too.

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Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

The fact is listening to music is not needed for the human to survive.

No one at any stage of your purchasing forced you too purchase an upgrade or spend money on some kit.

There was some vitreol spewed at Mick Parry on another forum because he wishes to buy a 552, the idea being that he is a mug, why? To him this represents a worth while upgrade, granted it costs a bomb but so what.

I am chuffed by my 102/180 compares a 92/90 the upgrade has been well worth it, there is really no need to justify it to anyone, especially on these forums.

Bruce you make a great point for *you* this upgrade path has been worth while and I for one agree totally, I am listening to music now, new stuff I laugh out loud with delight as I hear new stuff and it sounds so good.

F*** Diminishing returns, who cares, look at the cost of houses and cars and such like, everything worth having costs money.

Lets flaunt it!

rant over.

ahh, that sounds familiar! well put. congratulations!!

sometimes a system change has a very SIGNIFICANT effect on one's enjoyment of music at home. in that case the subjective "return" cannot really be described as diminishing...

of course, some upgrades simply DONT work (for a variety of reasons) -- in which case "diminishing returns" is hardly an appropriate term.

anyway, keep enjoying...

ken

Alex

Bruce

Bob.

FWIW my father farms pigs in the UK & the concept of profit to him is a distant memory...

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Teaching Math in 2000: A logger sells a truckload of lumber for 100. His cost of production is $120. How does Arthur Andersen determine that his profit margin is $60?

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In 1989 the logger made $20 profit and displaced the forest birds and squirrels.
By setting up a foundation for the now homeless creatures the logger was able to claim tax relief on the cost of production, and a 28% tax break on the production costs for the year following. Subsequently Forest Bird & Woodland Creatures Inc. all became employees paid in stock options (but no basic salary), with the proviso that options could not be exercised for 10 years; an attractive proposition given the average annual growth at the time. By felling only 3 trees a year the logger continued to post a slight loss on production, but the effect of making the employees responsible for paying their own income tax along with the low prime cost of disbursing of stock meant that things ticked along nicely. Now approaching retirement, the logger has in the last year felled all the trees and left. The forest birds and woodland creatures now are holding worthless stock, but by counting the cost of the accountant in the years production cost the logger is left holding $40 plus $20 advance rental on the cleared land as a carpark; total, $60 profit.

More seriously, where's the value in hifi?
The point of diminishing returns is surely as personal a call as the 'sound' you seek in the first place. The only problem as I see it is the despondancy that can follow the aquisition of mere things; especially when in hindsight one recognises a step too far. The fact that some of us - well, me, actually - are happy with low cost equipment to allow more source material has no bearing at all on another seeing an £11k preamp as good value. I only hope it brings as much pleasure!

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Originally posted by Martin Clark:

More seriously, where's the value in hifi?
The point of diminishing returns is surely as personal a call as the 'sound' you seek in the first place.

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Surely the pursuit is not of a sound but of emotion. (Currently listening to th eBoty Band and experiencing a near overwhelming desire for a pint of Guinness in a smoky bar).

Willy.

PS Martin, Want to be my accountant?

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Originally posted by NONaim:
Whilst it is somewhat correct to say that the absoulute improvement in any item decreases as you spend more and more (£100K car not ten times as fast as a £10K car) I think that diminishing returns misses the point of what individuals are trying to achieve.

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Brendan,

I think there is a problem with your analogy.

By adding more brute horsepower a car can travel at 300MPH, or Drag-race to the 1/4 mile in half-a-dozen seconds.

Leaving aside the 'volume' element of hifi, we are trying to eliminate fairly small differences between the reproduced sound and the original. The absolute difference from an upgrade may be small, but it is a significant step towards reducing the ways that the reproduction falls short of the original.

To put it another way (with some incredibly arbitrary numbers):-

If a 102 gives you 95%
An 82 gives you 98%
A 52 gives you 99%

then:-

A 102 is 5% short of the target
An 82 is 2% short of the target
A 52 is 1% short of the target

So a 52 is five times better than a 102. So there!

QED!

cheers, Martin

I have been surpised that changes recently (not just 52 but other things I have done) could reveal improvements which I did not actually think were 'left' to make, if you see what I mean.

Bruce

(Andy - crisp tenners will be fine)

Only slight snag is that over the 10 years I have owned Naim each of the dealers with whom I have settled (first in Otley, then in Preston) has gone out of business.

For a fee I can be made to take my business elsewhere..

Bruce

Dave