Mains Problem

quote:

i would like to hear from people who have gone through this kind of problem and sorted it

Ken

You don't seem to identify what exactly the problem is - can you elucidate?

Nigel

quote:

You don't seem to identify what exactly the problem is - can you elucidate?

nigel, thanks for interest. sorry i wasnt too clear.
the problem is extremely variable sound quality from my 252/supercap/250.2/sbl, all sources.

enjoy
ken

Although it is a bit drastic you could try a mains regeneration unit like one from ASL.
I'd hope ASL would let you try before you buy.

Alternatively, the more expensive unit from James Audio has an excellent reputation and is definitely try before you buy.

Had same problem when at my parents house when they where building a new home down the road. Was worse when crane was working. gave up trying to fix it until work ended...
Have the same problem where I live now, because whole building is being feed from construction mains (4 building complex with only 2 finished). Waiting for them to put in a transformer for the site with individual leads to each building.
Not sure you can do anything..

Paulo

thanks guys. i think i have located the source of the problem now. will update later when i am more sure, and of course, if there is interest.

enjoy
ken

Of course there's interest, Ken. Good to see you active in the forum again.

Just in case you haven't sourced the problem, check for any new AC devices (appliances, gadgets, etc) a family member might have purchased for the house. Barring that, how about an existing device a family member might have relocated to another room/circuit?

Hopefully, this isn't necessary and you've actually located the problem's source. If not, I've just planned part of your weekend;-)

cheers,

dave

P.S. Nice looking Hutter!

Come on Ken, don't keep us in suspense!

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Goldstar:
Come on Ken, don't keep us in suspense!

Bob

suspense is not really my style -- i just want to be sure that this is really it, and i can only tell after a few days. the system sometimes sounds good on powering up, only to deteriorate afterwards. so the next few days are going to be rather anxious. mind you i have been on the roller-coaster a few times already.

yes, will definitely post if indeed i have truly located the source of this problem.

meantime, thanks to all for suggestions.

enjoy
ken

quote:

Hopefully, this isn't necessary and you've actually located the problem's source. If not, I've just planned part of your weekend;-)

hi dave, nice to hear from you again... unplugging potential polluters -- been there and done that. last night i started systematically switching off ways in my main consumer unit, and one of them seemed to make a difference -- but i want to make sure the change is permanent. i've been here before, with the system seemingly OK, only to go downhill again after a few days.

the hutter is good, and in my view, different from my old mana in positive musical terms.

enjoy
ken

update: no dice i'm afraid. my last experiment, that is switching off one particular way in the consumer unit made what i convinced myself was a positive difference initially, which unfortunately only lasted till this evening. now the system is back to its lacklustre preformance. switching off any of the others didnt make any difference.

this must therefore be a problem with the mains feed itself. my dealer suggests to get an electrician to check the integrity of my earth connections at the mains input into the house. so i guess thats the next step.

phew...

enjoy
ken

quote:

how did you determine this and get the issue resolved.

When I was in retail I heard of a wealthy chap in Switzerland who had his own substation built...

Ken,

Beg borrow steal or buy a voltmeter that you can plug into the mains.

If you find the voltage slipping down towards 210v then you have a supply problem. Voltage may fluctuate too. There is a regulatory limit on what size of voltage swing is allowed within a certain number of seconds.

Once you can indicate that you think you may have a problem with the supply then the local power utility company is obliged to investigate and fix if necessary.

Alternatively there may be someone upstream of your supply putting a lot of noise into the supply (at yet your voltage may look fine). THat's a tougher one to crack.

Hi Gary,

Thanks for suggestion. I have a voltmeter and it measured 244-245V at one of the sockets. i have my electrician coming over in a few weeks, hopefully we can get to the bottom of all this nonsense. i hope its a local problem that we can crack -- thats what my electrician thinks anyhow. i sincerely hope its not a general supply pollution issue, else i am really stuck.

enjoy
ken

Ken
I am interested in what you find, I am experiecing big swings in voltage here in Chicago fron 114 to 128 volts within an hour. Replacing the lines into the house helped with noise on my system as the old ones were ancient and undersized. Not sure what acceptable range of mains voltage is as I have only begun looking at this recently.
Good luck, I hope it is a simple fix for you.

rOb

Ken,

Probably barking up the wrong tree here, but have you tried unplugging non-hifi devices from the mains vs. simply turning them off? I'm thinking in terms of Evil Lingo Mains Conditioning still live though switched off. I had a particular PC and power strip once that destroyed the hifi's ability to make music even if they were turned off. The only fix was to relocate both devices to the home's other electrical phase or unplug them from the wall when the hifi was on (both the PC and power strip have now been relocated to someone else's home;-)

quote:

Originally posted by ken c:
Hi Gary,

Thanks for suggestion. I have a voltmeter and it measured 244-245V at one of the sockets.

Ok, that's well over the norm and below the statutory maximum (230v +10% -5%). It would be a good idea to leave the thing plugged in for an extended period though. You should not only be looking for the peaks and troughs, but also the speed of any fluctuation.

I'm told that a voltage fluctuation of more than 6.5 volts in any 10 second period is out of spec. Trust me this can make a difference.

Good luck.

rOb, i am impressed you can just get lines into the house replaced just liek that -- i have written to my electricity supplier but somehow i really doubt if there is a reply.

dave, have 'systematically' turned off each consumer unit circuit circuit and assessed what the impact is. the curious and frustrating point is that some circuits did make a significant difference upon switching off, leading me to think i had isolated the problem, but as i say above, the sound deteroated again after a few hours. i am away from home right now so wont be able to do any tests for some time, but when i get back, my electrician is due, so hopefully he can 'throw some light' on the matter and together, we can measure a few things. he can also check my earth and measure impedance to earth on the hifi radials.

Gary, i will collect more data on the voltage swings. i was somewhat suprised about the 245 volts myself -- i think this was peak to peak.

enjoy
ken

Ken,
The replacement only took 5 months from initial request and permit issuance. It would most likely not have been done at all except the main circuit panel was upgraded as well as meter base so they needed to install a 200amp service from the pole as the house was still on it's 1930's 100 amp service prior to this.
I have encountered loose connections at the masthead of some homes we have remodeled, quite scary as you could watch lights dim and flicker with wind. Needless to say I take nothing for granted any longer until I have checked it thoroughly
Your electrician will be key in finding any issues. Utility companies are quite reponsive to substandard lines into the home as they can obviously be unsafe, from the meter on it is your reponsibilty.
As to voltage irregularities I am out of my knowledge base and hopeful a forum member will know what effect if any this has on systems performance.
Good luck with your quest.

rOb

quote:

Originally posted by ken c:
rOb, i am impressed you can just get lines into the house replaced just liek that -- i have written to my electricity supplier but somehow i really doubt if there is a reply.

Looking back here it's been done at least once in he UK. Mains problem.

Once you're out of spec they will stop at nothing (even to installing your own sub-station) to deliver the right mains.

Just hope that's the cause!

Gary, thanks for that link. the problem nick describes has a lot of similarities with mine. hoefully whatever the cause was, he is sorted and he has music at home now.

enjoy
ken

Warning: This is a long post. Apologies.

You will recall I reported poor sound from my system sometime ago. Since my dealer’s equipment didn’t sound any better in my home, we both suspected mains quality. Certainly all the tests i did pointed that way.

Ever since then, I have done a number of tests to try to isolate the (mains) problem. In almost all cases, the system would sound quite good after the test, but would deteriorate after about a day or so. I have done many ‘mains’ related tests, including switching off all circuits except the Hifi one (and almost forgetting to switch the freezer back on!), connecting the Hifi to the domestic CU, connecting a different cable from the CU, changing the MCB’s in my dedicated CU, – with the same result – an apparent improvement initially, but which doesn’t last. The most dramatic change was when I changed from Mana to Hutter rack – the effect was so emphatic that I was sure the Mana rack was somehow the source of my problem (strange after I had had it for some time) – but unfortunately within a day or so, the sound was back to lacklustre again. So it was clear the Mana wasn’t the source of the problem.

One test that was significant was when I substituted a 200 for the 250 without powering down the Supercap. The sound improved immediately. So I began to suspect my 250.2, but this theory went out through the window a couple of days when the sound deteriorated again. Another test was switching off the Hicap feeding the spare system pre-amp, again, immediate positive effect – but which didn’t last. Switching off the spare system completely also had the same temporary effect.

It seemed as if any change at all in loading on the supply somehow changed the sound of the system for the better temporarily – but I was (and am still) at a loss why this should be the case. I connected new earth wires at the CU into a new earth block. This didn’t make any different whatsoever (for a change!). I examined the main earth connection to the house – made sure this was secure. Again, this made no difference.

I was home this weekend and of course after being away for a couple of weeks, I was quite keen to find out how the system was sounding. No difference. Same poor sound. I had been trying to get my electrician to come round and check a few things but he is too busy at new house building site very near where I live (which could actually explain the poor mains!).

For a while now, a few months I guess, there has been quite an audible hum from the G17 aerial on our roof, on and off. I put that down to the elements vibrating in the wind – its been quite windy of late. However, my wife countered that the humming sound sometimes came on when there was no wind at all!

She suggested that that humming sound could be the source of the problems with sound quality of my system. “Rubbish”, I thought. Women, what do they know, heh!

But I decided to check a few things nevertheless. I dismantled the plug into the tuner and, lo and behold, the central copper wire was heavily tarnished black – almost charred… How strange! Then I played a CD with the tuner out of circuit. Better! But I dared not conclude that i had found the cause because I had been in this situation several times before only for the sound to deteriorate afterwards.

I put in a new coax plug and re-connected the tuner. Later on that night when I was in bed, the humming came back. I disconnected the aerial cable from the tuner and the humming stopped immediately.

I called Kerry O’Sullivan, who is now doing Ron Smith’s installs, to come over and examine my G17 and coax run.

The first question he asked me when he had inspected the whole cable run was “was the signal wire at the plug tarnished badly?” “Yes!” “Water damage”, he said immediately. “Your aerial cable had a joint which had deteriorated since the aerial was installed and water had got into it and probably seeped down the cable”. Ah! i really dont understand why the cable was joined at all!! When I mentioned the humming sound he simply said very strange things happen with radio frequencies. He installed a new aerial cable, no joins, and also re-routed it to reduce exposure to the elements. Very thorough job actually for the money i paid.

I sent the NAT02 for service anyhow, just to be sure. I am now using a T40 instead and it actually sounds a lot better than I remember – but of course it’s not a NAT02.

It’s now a few days and the sound is consistently better. It has an edge to it, but I think this is probably due to the new MCB’s and a few new cables that I installed.

I am crossing my fingers that that this posting is not premature. It does seem like this is the end though. So, hopefully, I can now lay this problem to rest. It’s been the most frustrating and time consuming experience i have had for some time.

I could cook up an explanation of what was happening (pollution of signal earth) to affect sound of my system, but I’ll just leave it at what Kerry said. Strange things happen with radio frequencies and aerials.

It doesn’t look like it was a problem with mains in the house after all!

Phew…

Enjoy
Ken

Ken,

What a story. I really do hope you have found, and cured, the root cause of your problems.

What about your television aerial? is that corroded? (don't get neurotic about this...........)

Cheers

Don

thanks Don. i hope so too - signs are good.

television aerial? thats in the loft so its protected.

enjoy
ken

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Ken,

What a story. I really do hope you have found, and cured, the root cause of your problems.

What about your television aerial? is that corroded? (don't get neurotic about this...........)

Cheers

Don

Fingers crossed for you Ken.

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Shaw:
Fingers crossed for you Ken.

Kind words. Many thanks Gary!

enjoy
ken