Your Favorite Symphonies

You have 4 sissies in your list of 7 composers! Have you never heard Bruckner??? What about Brahms?

Also seems some other people are buying their classical music from wanker audiophile vinyl catalogues. You know who you are.

Vuk.

You calling my record collection a queer?

quote:

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Have you never heard Bruckner???

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Only on the radio and a couple of times at concerts, and despite being impressed I never seem to write down what it was. Suggest something and I'll give it a go.

By inference - you are calling Dvorak a sissey? Not sure about that.

When in the mood for a big sound I usually go for a Mass. In my defence:-

Beethoven Missa Solemnis (Gardiner)
Faure Requiem (Gardiner)
Handel Messiah (various)
Mozart C-Minor Mass (various)
Mozart Requiem* (various - AoAM fave)

No limp writed boys in that list!

Be very glad if anyone would suggest a way into Bruckner 'tho.

Jonathan

* Favourite piece of music, ever.

[This message was edited by 1st Pentacostal Church of Vuksanovic on FRIDAY 01 March 2002 at 16:18.]

good to see Mozart's C-minor Mass on your sissie list. It's one of those works (like the first string quartet in Mozart's "Haydn" set) you can literally hear the breakthrough to new musical forms and freedom. IMO Gardiner's recording is best.

Are you familiar with the Herreweghe recording of the Mozart Requiem? It's on Harmonia Mundi. Perhaps it's even better than the Gardiner version. Gardiner's Choir is great in the dramatic thing (plenty of that in the masses); Herreweghe's choir perhaps has a more churchy character.

Bruckner: I'd start with either the Fourth or the Seventh.
In the fourth I really like Blomstedt with the Dresden, or Bohm with the Vienna, or Klemperer with Bayern.
Seventh is pretty good in the spanking new Wand / Berlin.

Life without Bruckner, though, is eminently possible. I listen to Bruckner maybe once a year. Okay, maybe twice. Or does the "twice" ruin my shot at a Sissy Award?

Herman

I was in a CD shop yesterday, but they only had Mengelberg Brahms 3 with one movement from Brahms 1. I knew I should have bought it.

Will check out the 2 and 4 and report back.....

BTW I suprised by your aversion to Sibelius - the guy defintely wrote some weak pieces, but Symphonies 4-7 are come across as very structurally sound. Personally Mahler comes much closer to being on the sissy list.

David

Here are some Bruckner essentials:

Symphony No. 4
- Furtwängler (DG)
- Jochum (DG)
- Tintner (Naxos)--not for everyone

Symphony No. 7
- Jochum (EMI)

Symphony No. 8
- Karajan (DG, 1977!!!)
- Jochum (DG)
- Furtwängler (DG)

Symphony No. 9
- Walter (Sony)
- Giulini (DG)

Now, as for your masses, Gardiner's "reading" of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is utterly appalling and I can't imagine you were able to come to any terms with the work on the basis of that recording. It misses the point unlike any interpretation I have ever heard. If you can, hunt down the ancient Clemens Krauss effort put out by DG in their special 150th Vienna PO Anniversary Box. Otherwise, Herreweghe on Harmonia Mundi will do nicely (and is recorded a bit better); sissy-boy Herman is also correct in suggesting this conductor's Mozart Requiem, though you need the Roy Goodman (Nimbus) and Karl Böhm (DG) accounts to cover all angles properly. If I had to choose one, it would be the Goodman disc. Other choral works you should investigate are Haydn's Creation (Karajan on DG or Hogwood on Oiseau Lyre), Verdi's Requiem (Toscanini, RCA), Schoenberg's Gurrelieder (Chailly, Decca/London) and the Bach Cantatas (Harnoncourt, Teldec). I'll expect a full report from you on Monday.

Fauré not a sissy? As Ross will surely point out soon enough, ALL French composers are sissies.

Vuk.

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on FRIDAY 01 March 2002 at 17:14.]

You are correct about Mahler, but he is a sissy quite in his own class.

Vuk.

I have a chance to hear some live music next week and need to get my mind right...

The concert also features a string trio performing Bach's Goldberg Variations but I already have Gould's CD and another by the NES Chamber Orchestra palying Sitkovetsky's transcriptions (Nonesuch 79341-2). I am a rank neophyte when it comes to Classical, but the Sitkovetsky sounds brilliant to my ears.

Thanks.

PS Be gentle on me you bastid.

For using the word 'asparagus' in a symphony, this seems entirely appropriate.

David

[Misread the first time, but in any case, you are much better off with the 4th symphony.]--edited

That's easy: the Music&Arts 2-CD set of the wartime recordings of 4, 5, 6 & 7 by Furtwängler, who makes the No. 4 actually sound like an odd-numbered symphony! Even-numbered Bethoven is for sissies. Yes, you have to get 3 other symphonies, but they are all arguably the best performances ever of these works. Catalogue number is: CD-842. If in a pinch, Harnoncourt does a respectable job on Teldec (with a fantastic 2nd movement) and the old Karajan (DG, 1963) is alright too (though you may have to get the whole box of 9 for it).

Vuk.

[This message was edited by Vuk Vuksanovic on FRIDAY 01 March 2002 at 17:59.]

I have the Gardinier Mozart Requiem. Along with Bohm, Mariner, Hogwood (prefered) and Karajan.

Verdi's - I have only the Hickox.

I find it difficult to listen to the Creation as one of the biggest tossers I have ever met played it a lot. And The Smiths.

My Bach collecting hasn't got that far yet. Prolific bugger.

I'll start with a couple of the Bruckner's and work out from there.

Cheers
Jonathan

John

PS - Did you ever get around to checking out the BC stuff?

Do you mind terribly if I have a Homeric Laugh at your expense, just once?

I don't know why JWSz asked you for a Beethoven recommendation - he was bound to get an antiquated, crappily recorded "legendary" performance recommended.

However, this time you went one better. And let me tell you why.

Recommending - no surprise there - a wartime Furtwangler recording with no hint of a doubt whatsoever is a little funny because in the real world Beethoven Opus 18, no 4 in c minor is a STRING QUARTET - just like the other opus 18 works.

Since when is Furtwangler a string quartet? Since when is a string quartet a symphony - even or odd-numbered?

If you had actually read JWSz's mail you could have figured he was talking about a chamber music occasion.

So perhaps it's just as handy if I give a couple of ensembles that have recorded the Early Beethoven string quartets: a lot of people like the Alban Berg Quartet; there's the Melos and frankly it's very hard to go wrong with the Opus 18 set. (As long as you don't ask Vuk)

Oh, and Vuk, this is all in a friendly manner; it's just that I'm sometimes a little baffled by the monolithic way you put your rather personal views.

Herman

[This message was edited by herm on FRIDAY 01 March 2002 at 17:52.]

Perhaps I did not ask the question correctly?

You are indeed correct, Sir. Many thanks for the correction and the recommendations.

John

Chamber music in the period between Bach and Shostakovich is mainly for sissies anyhow.

Herman, you are very much a newbie and you need to curb your insolence toward established, senior members of our community. One more slip up and I'll assign Steven Toy to be your buddy.

Vuk.

Herman

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GBS/qid=1015005515/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_0_3/202-5262235-8486230

And then if I relly like it I'll look for the more obsure stuff - or are there some real stinkers in this lot?

Cheers
Jonathan

I was thinking of trying the Kodaly Quartet on Naxos for Opus 18, No.4, unless you gents think this is a huge mistake.

The Hungarian perspective on this piece is appropriate since the concert features some visiting Hungarian musicians.

Thanks again.

PS - since this music is for sissys...would wearing ladies' undergarments make this event more special? I am a beginner on these matters. Please advise.

Naxos # 8.501104 BRUCKNER: Complete Symphonies

John

Hi John,

i wouldn't recommend the Kodaly Quartet on Naxos. It's a rather mediocre band, playing sufficiently well, but never good enough to break your heart over a piece.

By the way: the op 18 c minor is a very accessible piece. You don't really need to prepare! However, you will want to hear the piece after you've been to the concert, and I do recommend you get a good recording by an ensemble of some stature.

[Why don't you tell us who is playing at the concert? Oh, and at chamber events lace panties is a given; did no one tell you?]

Hi Jonathan,

excellent idea, the Jochum box. I have the vinyl collection. Jochum in my mind beats Fürtwängler in that he has these same awe-inspiring moments of intensity, but he also has a kind of Schubert-like jollity. And of course his orchestral sound is way better.

So do it. But don't start at the start.

Herman

By any chance did they dress you up in girl's clothes when you were little? It could explain your rather curious critical allusions that make the Vienna Phil seem like the last bastion of tolerance and equal opportunity.

The Jochum recordings are pretty expensive, so I wouldn't get this unless you can track it down for significantly less. Regarding, Vuk's choices for Bruckner

4th: Furtwangler would certainly not be my first choice for this - it's a pretty unusual performance and something like Bohm on Decca is a far safer choice. IMHO the Bohm is probably the most recommendable with Wand/BPO coming a close second. The Bohm has a very natural sounding recording which gives you the impression of being in front of an orchestra, rather than what seems to be the trend these days which is to make it sound like you are conducting the work.

8th: The Karajan is a good allrounder for this work. There is a significant difference between the Haas and the Novak editions of this symphony, which means I'd make sure you pick a Haas edition. The new Gunther Wand/BPO is also excellent and is in stunning sound. Furtwangler (who unfortunately uses a modified Haas) again has a very individual view of this work - Richard Osborne call it neurotic. It certainly has a very tragic feel to the work - which I don't think is entirely in keeping with Bruckner's intentions. But if you want to sample this then, I prefer the two March dates (I think 1951) that were recorded in the Tatania Palast. Despite the poorer sound, audience coughing and the planes flying overhead (certainly gives the recording a live feel) it takes Furtwangler view of the work to an extreme.

Symphony No 9: If you want to try a good performance of this work in first class sound then the Barenboim/BPO is excellent. The Furtwangler recording of this on DG is also excellent, in many ways better than his interpretations of 4 or 8.

7th - Karajan or Chailly also recommended

Symphony No 5. I'm suprised Vuk did't recommend this, as IMHO his best symphony after 8, if not as approachable as 4, 7 or 9. Furtwangler 1951 is in a class of it's own, but if you want something in more modern sound, then Dochnanyi, Chailly or Sinopoli.

David

"..and now we play a recording of Bruckners 4th Symphony, conducted by the late Gunter Want with the Bavarian Radio Orchestra... "

..rack temporarily left incomplete due to beline for main system in middle of second movement.

How about that for spooky. Definitely getting some more - I think I'll try the Jochum on the basis of ease, and less time tracking these things down means more time listening to stuff, despite expense.

Thanks for the help guys.

Jonathan

As you said Herm I found the Mravinski unsubtle, Spartan, like a Military Band, and not too delicate. But it was exciting. I enjoyed it. Much better than the two other recordings I have. I now feel I should get the Hatink [I have his 7th, 8th and 11th] but there's so much new music to buy that I am now torn.

Steve

don't be torn! Three Shos Fives is quite a collection. The Halle and the Wigglesworth are, of course, not as interesting as the Mravinsky or the Haitink. I guess that's the price you pay for cheap CD's... Though the Haitink shouldn't be too expensive either.

Oh, and recently I noticed I had forgotten to reply to your Wuorinen query. The music I talked about is recorded by Koch International, which is a full price label.

You like chamber music, don't you? does that include piano solo? In that case I would recommend that Peter Serkin disc I have talked about a couple of previous times. It features an excellent Wuorinen piece, and lots of other 20th C guys. The disc is titled "The Ocean that has no West and no East" and it's also on Koch. Lotta bang for yr buck, IMO

Herman